New traits! What will Seafaring and Agricultural do?

[The Mad Monk]

I think with the exception of the first few years, when we really didn't know what we were doing, America (colonies, and then nation) has always been an exceptional agricultural producer.

[Lord God Jinnai]

well with the exception of religious, militartaristic and seafaring a strong case could be made for any of them for the US.

Not that i care...i usually delete the US from even being picked at random in my civ3mod-no US.bic Its slightly more historic that way

[Louis XXIV]

My guess is Agricultural gives cheap granaries, +1 food for "cities", +2 for "Metropolises"

Seafaring might give a ship to start out with, cheap harbors, and maybe +1 move

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

Anyone want to take bets on who's agricultural and who's seafaring?

As I still have no clue who's in and who's not, I'd like to suggesting the following revisions... not gonna happen most likely, but who knows?

Persia - Agricultural, Religious
Reason: birthplace of Mazdaism, one of the first (and still going) monotheistic faiths. Once sustained a MASSIVE population (largest in the world before the Mongol invasion), still substantial today despite the arid landscape.

I know Persia is industrious because they built a large road network under Darius and Xerxes. Not sure why Scientific, though

China - Agricultural, Industrious
Reason: I'd love to see Scientific in there too, but only 2 traits per civ.

I like this

Carthage - Seafaring, Commercial
Reason: Industrious? This has always bothered me. What did the Carthaginians do that qualifies them to be industrious? Maybe I'm just an ignorant noob.

Nothing better?

I agree with those traits

English - Seafaring, Commercial
Reason: The sun never sets on the British empire. Expansionist is appropriate, of course. But I'd love to see those Men O'War be more relevant.

They could possibly be Seafaring, Expansionist (someone has to be it)

Vikings - Seafaring, Militaristic
Reason: C'mon!

I would be suprised if it isn't

Korea - Agricultural OR Seafaring, Commercial
Reason: Gameplay balance. Why is Korea always so damn strong, in terms of tech, culture and trade? Korea throughout history never had this sort of power... not that I've got anything against Korea per se...

Hmm, Agricultural might be stronger than Scientific, so this might not help

Celts - Expanionist, Militaritic
Reason: Ok, I know this seems insane. But I think religious gives these guys too much of an edge. I'm a history nut, and I always get chagrined when the Celts have made it to the modern age, with an impressive empire and gigantic history...

With the Zulu and Mongols, this trait is overdone. The Celt's traits fit them perfectly (even if it makes them powerful)

India - Agricultural, religious
Reason: India's current traits are perfectly fine, but I think this might be even better (accuracy wise).

I like this

Ottomans - Militaristic, Commercial
Reason: Seems out of left field? Well, I don't know of the Scientific achievements of the Ottomans off-hand, but I do know of their ability to sustain a large, ethnically diverse empire for a long time, and of their impressive military history. Of course, perhaps an even better trait combo would be Militaritic and Industrious, in place of China.

The Ottoman empire preserved the science of the ancient world while Europe was less advanced. I'm sure there is a reason for industrious (I just can't think of it)

I can't think of more I'd like to speculate about. I doubt serious revisions will be made to the game, so perhaps this post is a bit lame. Just thinking out loud.

Greeks might be seafaring (maybe Scientific, Seafaring)
This has mainly to do with Athens (which the Greeks seem to be based on anyway)

Japan might be Religious, Seafaring

These are just thoughts on if I can stick Seafaring anywhere else

It would be nice to get a confirmation on the 7 (or 8) civs that will be in the game so we can figure out the 28 original and 3 or 4 duplicate combos

[pinocchio]

what could the trigger be for a golden age for an agricultural civ??

[Panag]

Originally posted by pinocchio
what could the trigger be for a golden age for an agricultural civ??

hi ,

, a wonder like the pyramids , ......

have a nice day

[vmxa1]

Don't forget to consider that traits may need to be assign for balance, without regard to any historical reality.
IOW you do not want to wind up with some traits notbeing used or one one civ with it. You also do not want to give proper (if there is such a thing) traits to a civ, but make them unplayable.

[asleepathewheel]

What techs would ags and seas get? pottery for ag and??? alpha for sea? Would expansionists still get pottery then, or would a couple of techs be added in to start?

[CerberusIV]

With 6 traits you get 5+4+3+2+1 = 15 combinations. That is why civ3 had all the combinations plus religious/militaristic twice but aztecs and japan with different starting techs.

8 traits gives 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 28 combinations so with 31 civs we can probably expect to see all the possible combinations plus 3 duplicates.

[Panag]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
With 6 traits you get 5+4+3+2+1 = 15 combinations. That is why civ3 had all the combinations plus religious/militaristic twice but aztecs and japan with different starting techs.

8 traits gives 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 28 combinations so with 31 civs we can probably expect to see all the possible combinations plus 3 duplicates.

hi ,

still , it would have been good to see maybe two more , so that there are ten in all , ......

and they really should rework the two traits for each civ rule , ....

have a nice day

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Even if one or two of the traits is redone, I think Atari will probably not redo too many of them, because a. that might anger the fan base that has come to identify certain civs with certain traits, and, more importantly, b. it allows for further add-on packages (à la PTW)

As for America being agricultural and industrious... this makes a lot of sense... but despite America's overwhelming agricultural output, it should be noted that current agricultural practices may leave the American breadbasket no longer functioning come the late 21st century. This principally has to do with the abandonment of crop rotation and depletion of fresh water reserves. Still, A-I for America would make a lot of sense. Industrious seems indisputable to me... this is the country, after all, for which "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" was basically written.

[Dominae]

My guesses:

Greece: Scientific, Seafaring
China: Agricultural, Militaristic
America: Agricultural, Industrious
England: Expansionist, Seafaring
Spain: Religious, Seafaring
Scandinavia: Militaristic, Seafaring
Carthage: Commercial, Seafaring

Hittites: Militaristic, Scientific
Incans: Agricultural, Commercial
Sumerians: Agricultural, Religious


The only thing that really bothers me about this list is that England should really be a Commercial civ, yet I can think of no better to fill the Expansionist/Seafaring slot.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Note that I've only added in changes involving the new traits. If they decide to redo the civs by rearranging the old traits, my first guess is that they would put America as Commercial/Industrious. I've never understood why this was not the case at the game's first release.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Dominae
Note that I've only added in changes involving the new traits. If they decide to redo the civs by rearranging the old traits, my first guess is that they would put America as Commercial/Industrious. I've never understood why this was not the case at the game's first release.

I think mostly because of the ability of commercial civs to retain large, cohesive overseas empires... America has done this exceptionally well, but chiefly through proxies, not actual colonies. And then, though America controls through the IMF and other institutions the flow of the world's economy to a certain extent, it's not always the best manager of that economy...

...whereas, the rapid of expanion across the North American continent was incredible, similar to the Russian advance through Siberia. An enourmous amount of land was explored, conquered and settled in a brief time. Hence, expansionist. And Industrious is 100% appropriate at almost every stage of America's history. The USA was one of the earliest societies to go industrial...

...there is a very good case to be made for commercial in my view, and an even better case to be made for religious... militaristic is also a contender. But, given the general view in America of America, I think E/I are good choices. A/I would also be good...

...if only civs' traits could "evolve" just as in real life...

[Thoth]

quote:
4. City centers produce +1 Food at sizes 1-6, +2 Food at sizes 7-12 and +3 Food at sizes 13+; interesting.


Powerful. Not as powerful as 30 shield granaries... I don't think. But it could be close. If you are Agr and start next to a grassland cow (or wheat), you're at +5 food/turn really, really fast. Toss in Industrious as the second trait, and your civ won't expand, it'll explode.

The +1 food for towns won't have an effect until after Monarchy/Repuplic. The Despotic tile penalty still applies to the city square, so the bonus for towns would be lost. You would still get an extra boost to Despotic Cities, but the real boost would be delayed until the late Ancient/early Medieval period.

The bonus would be nice, but the Agri trait would need another minor bonus in addition to the home tile bonus to balance it out with the other traits.

[Dominae]

To me, "Commercial" means trade, companies and moneymaking; "Commercial" is not equivalent to "colonial expansion". Why do Commercial civs get bonus Commerce in large cities if "Commercial" is supposed to represent colonialism?

It is undeniable that America is a modern-day commercial giant, and "capitalism" was a driving force throughout almost its entire history. America's most defining trait (what makes it stand out in the "history books") is its economic superiority.

I believe they put originally put America as Expansionist/Industrious because no other civ could really fit that description, and they needed a civ for every trait combination. But that does not mean America should be Commercial/Industrious!


Dominae