New traits! What will Seafaring and Agricultural do?

[FrustratedPoet]

What do you think of the chances of Egypt being made Agricultural? The farming of the Nile is of huge importance in their history, obviously.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
What do you think of the chances of Egypt being made Agricultural? The farming of the Nile is of huge importance in their history, obviously.

The farming of the Nile is important, but no less so the building of the Pyramids and the Sphinx. I think that's why Industrious was choosen originally.

It is a bit of a toss up, though. Doubtless, religious should stay.

One interesting possibility of agricultural would be to get one shield of production from flood plains. Hear me out on this one - many of the earliest cities build alongside the Tigris and Eurphrates were literally built of mud and grass caked together to form bricks. Eridu was rebuilt several times after it melted in the rain. Perhaps the "river-valley civs" deserve to be compensated?

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
One interesting possibility of agricultural would be to get one shield of production from flood plains. Hear me out on this one - many of the earliest cities build alongside the Tigris and Eurphrates were literally built of mud and grass caked together to form bricks. Eridu was rebuilt several times after it melted in the rain. Perhaps the "river-valley civs" deserve to be compensated?

It's an interesting idea, but I doubt it would happen. Flood plains are already the most powerful non-resource city growth terrain. It is balanced by not being a shield producer. Adding a shield to it would make it THE most powerful terrain type IMHO.

As to who gets agriculture, a case could be made for almost all the civs. Seafaring is obvious that it should only go to certain civs, but many of the civs have historically had good agricultural bases in their heyday.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
As to who gets agriculture, a case could be made for almost all the civs. Seafaring is obvious that it should only go to certain civs, but many of the civs have historically had good agricultural bases in their heyday.

Quite true. It's not easy to concieve of what the agricultural trait might add - though I think +1 in the city square with 1/2 priced granaries and maybe another, new improvement, are the most likely benefits - whether or not this unbalances the game.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Quite true. It's not easy to concieve of what the agricultural trait might add - though I think +1 in the city square with 1/2 priced granaries and maybe another, new improvement, are the most likely benefits - whether or not this unbalances the game.

Well we have 3 or 4 months of speculation to try and figure it out. I honestly don't have a clue what it might be, but I really hope it's balanced well.

[alexman]

Would it be likely that they give seafaring civs extra commerce or food from coast/sea/ocean tiles?

This would encourage founding cities on the coast, as opposed to inland.

One extra food per tile, for example, would have the food effect of a free harbor (with no additional benefit from building a harbor in Despotism, except from fish and whales).

[Arrian]

4. City centers produce +1 Food at sizes 1-6, +2 Food at sizes 7-12 and +3 Food at sizes 13+; interesting.

Powerful. Not as powerful as 30 shield granaries... I don't think. But it could be close. If you are Agr and start next to a grassland cow (or wheat), you're at +5 food/turn really, really fast. Toss in Industrious as the second trait, and your civ won't expand, it'll explode.

Dunno if this really works either, but what about exempting agricultural civs from government penalties on food production? It could have a similar effect to your #4, but would be a tad more hit 'n miss.

Seafaring: I would remove 1/2 price harbors from militaristic and give it to seafarers, plus a +1 movement for their ships. No "safe on sea tiles" bonus, though. Gotta build the Lighthouse for that (but then you have 5-move galleys. Mmmm.... Vikings.... mmmm).

-Arrian

[alexman]

Originally posted by Arrian

Seafaring: I would remove 1/2 price harbors from militaristic and give it to seafarers...

That was my first thought also, but wouldn't that weaken militaristic civs too much? I think the existing traits are nicely balanced as they are.

[Dominae]

My hunch is that Seafaring will have to do with naval power, most probably making ships better (reduced cost, extra movement, etc.). This area is sorely lacking in the game so far, and is a therefore a prime area for improvement.

To me, giving bonuses to Coast tiles (Food or Commerce) does not fit the "Seafaring" description. It would make more sense to encourage the Vikings and the English to build boats instead of simply making their coastal cities better.


Dominae

[bobbo008]

i'm not sure about china and india being agricultural, with their near constant famines and everyone basically being hungry constantly

[Arrian]

Originally posted by alexman


That was my first thought also, but wouldn't that weaken militaristic civs too much? I think the existing traits are nicely balanced as they are.

I don't think so, really. Militaristic is, for me, mostly about the cheap barracks and quick promotions. I often play militaristic civs and partway through the game find myself saying "oh yeah, cool! I get 1/2 cost harbors!" If I didn't get them I wouldn't be all that upset. Sure, it does devalue the trait a bit, but not much, IMO.

This is probably because I play continents maps. If I played 'pelago maps more, harbors would be more important to me.

-Arrian

[Falconius]

Regarding seafaring: It may be possible to go through most or all of a game without this trait doing anything. What if you start out in the middle of a large continent on a large map? What if an AI civ does? You could spend a good deal of a game trying to reach the sea so your seafaring trait "kicks in." The AI may not know enough to do this.

All the other traits, by comparison, never have this problem. They are all "active" from the start.

[Dominae]

Half cost Harbors are very important part of the Militaristic trait for me. 40 extra Shields is a long time to wait for all your coastal cities to actually beging paying off. Militaristic/Religious is my favorite trait combination these days (again), simply because it halves the cost on all the most important improvements (save Granaries, but those are typically not built in large numbers).

On another note, would half cost Granaries really be that powerful? You get a really really nice early boost, but in the entire game you would only save on about 100 or so Shields? Or would they be cheap enough to build in all cities?


Dominae

[Arrian]

Alexman,

Going back to the militaristic trait, I can think of two ways to strengthen it to compensate for the loss of cheap harbors:

1) a small boost to free unit support. Something like 4 free units no matter what government you use... a boost early, fairly inconsequential late.

2) a small reduction in war weariness.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Dominae,

Consider what could be done with that early boost, though. That's where the power lies.

And I end up with granaries in nearly every city. Once you hit size13, you either need a ridiculous food surplus or a granary for reasonable growth. Most core cities will have one by the medieval age. The rest will get them in the early industrial (when they take ~2 turns) to build. Unless I have the Pyramids by then, of course.

-Arrian