civ3 suggestion: public access to its api

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Grim Legacy
As a sidenote- I think many companies underestimate the effect that releasing (older) sourcecode and/or providing people with Abandonware titles has. I for one appreciate this very much. It extends the impact of the game and its producer. I recently enjoyed playing Master of Magic again...

Your choice of example with Master of Magic is kind of ironic as the company (or to use your words producer) that made it is now defunct and all of its assets have been sold off long ago (I believe that Atari has the rights now, although there is a rumor of Sid buying it up from them).

Is this the impact that game companies want?

[Panag]

hi ,

it would be intresting to see something like freeciv on a civ3 level , ....

but somehow the feeling is that it wont happen , ....

have a nice day

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by Stuie


Legally?? Where??

Look for it under "Abandonware" using Google or some such. There are a couple of websites offering it I think.

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by WarpStorm


Your choice of example with Master of Magic is kind of ironic as the company (or to use your words producer) that made it is now defunct and all of its assets have been sold off long ago (I believe that Atari has the rights now, although there is a rumor of Sid buying it up from them).

Is this the impact that game companies want?

Is that so? I thought Microprose went up in Infogrames (later they in turn to Atari)... not really the same as "being defunct".
In any case I contest the notion that the impact I spoke of is somehow associated with bankruptcy or failure as you seem to hint at.

[WarpStorm]

After having money troubles they were bought by Spectrum Holobyte (who then changed their name to Microprose). They went bankrupt and sold their assets to Hasbro who in turn sold them Infogrames who became Atari (who was a another bankrupt company whose properties were bought by Infogrames). The original company is effectively gone (although some of the major players are in Firaxis, Breakaway, Big Huge Games, and Retro Studios).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprose

Your example of an abandoned product that people are downloading (probably without Atari's say-so - abandonware is not a legal term) and modding, adds no credibility to your argument that exposing the API makes good business sense for the owners of the software (note, I'm not saying that it is or isn't, just that your example doesn't support it).

[vmxa1]

Yes legally in the US there no such thing as abandonware. If someone hold the rights anyone posting it and downloading it is breaking the law. The thing is that there is no RAIA going after them, so it goes on.

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by WarpStorm Your example of an abandoned product that people are downloading (probably without Atari's say-so - abandonware is not a legal term) and modding, adds no credibility to your argument that exposing the API makes good business sense for the owners of the software (note, I'm not saying that it is or isn't, just that your example doesn't support it).

Ok, I agree that my example was indeed poor, as I was unaware of the fate of the associated company.
I still think that it shows goodwill to refrain from hogging old games that cannot be reasonably sold anymore because they are so dated.

Behold, I have another example to present (hopefully more convincing hehe): Steel Panthers.

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/WorldAtWar/

This is basically an old strategy game that is now a free download and that now enjoys a new players community and an active modscene.

Another game company has recently made a comparable move, albeit not the full release of an old title. They produced an online sequel/expansion to their basic game that can be downloaded for free and works on its own without the need for a previous purchase. I am talking about Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, of course. Already, this expansion is very popular and it's obvious that this fanbase will later materialize in paying customers for the next game in the series that the producer may come up with.

http://games.activision.com/games/wolfenstein/

[WarpStorm]

Okay, those are two better examples. In fact, SPWAW is a much better game than the original store bought release. I don't think that allowing Matrix to massively mod it made the original copyright owners any money (or potential for future sales), but it is a good game.

In the case of Wolfenstein, what you are saying may or may not be true. They were intending for people to pay for Enemy Terrritory, but there was a decided lack of consumer interest with the current glut of WW2 games. They couldn't sell it so they gave it away. Will this actually increase sales of their next game? I doubt it unless the game shines on it's own.

Probably the best example for opening the API and it actually helping sales is Half Life. They milked the Counter Strike mod for what it was worth. They even charged people for boxed versions of what they could freely download. The didn't give the code away, you still needed HL, but they did give the mod away for free.

[latka]

Why don't companies go after people for distribution of abandonware and why don't they make old products source code publicly available?

You play the game, so you should now, gold.

What is to be gained by trying to take these people to court? Are they making any money off of it? Are they including the code in other products?

The companies who abandoned the product have to prove damage was done to them and they have to pay attorneys to do this.

Do you really care if someone steals that old beat-up lawn chair from your back yard? Do you want to take the time and effort in filing your police report? Do you think they are going to get any type of punishment for something that you have shown that you don't care about. Remember, upgraded products are an indication that you care.

RAIA is going after people who are stealing current products, which money is to be made on. Do you see them going after anyone for downloading copies of Gene Autrey songs?

Now there are reasons for not giving out the source, which is protecting your intellectual property, which may still be in use in your current product. Or possible, hide the fact that you stole someone else protected property and they don't know. Let's not forget the embarrassment factor. After all, patches come out for a reason.

Let's also not forget about sub routine screw_the_idiot_who_actually_paid_for_this_piece_o f_crud. Do you want to spend the time and money cleansing the code for public distribution?

Now free distribution of old quality games does make sense, if you have a current release of that game. It is called marketing.

[Panag]

hi ,

What is to be gained by trying to take these people to court? Are they making any money off of it? Are they including the code in other products?

Latka , well some companies are either gone , chapter 11 or an other , swallowed by a larger firm , etc , .....

but most firms feel that its a waste of time , and since courtcases cost loads of money , .....

that and due to the fact that the law , both intl and local ( when it come to the US and EU ) has many differences , .....

some people make money of it , and when they start to get loads of money they get a nice courtcase , ....

have a nice day

[Inverse Icarus]

i think it was mike(?) who said "i don't like to provide scripting languages because the only power it gives the user is to create more bugs."

you think they'd let you at their API after that statement?

[vmxa1]

If you don't take action on copyright violations, you will have defacto granted a lic. IOW if you do don't the copyright is nullified.

That is why major corps go after mom and pop stores. To keep their copyrighted logo and names.

Games will no be able to protect any further versions that used the material, if they do not protect it.

[vmxa1]

The question I would have is why do people think they have a right to use others property. If I don't use my lawn mover can others just use it?

Oh I know they are corporations and hence they are evil, so we can do anything to them and it is ok, I forgot.

[gunkulator]

I think it can reasonably be argued that releasing APIs and supporting scripting languages would significantly increase costs to game companies. Instead of one set of logic to debug, they would have to support hundreds, if not thousands of users trying to figure out why things didn't work the way they wanted them to.

Sure they could offer them with no support at all, however this tends to imply low quality or at least seems like deceptive marketing.
Outside the box: "Buy our new fully extensible game!". Inside the box: "extensiblity is not supported - don't call us if you break it".