Lego FA thread 1

[Rhothaerill]

Email from Vondrack

Hi Jared,

> Okay, we'll go for espionage at 100%.

Great, thanks - we have internally agreed on going for Scientific Method in 4t ourselves now (after finishing Combustion), saving cash and letting others research Mass Production and Flight first, lowering their costs for us - the leading researcher is than us... we've caught up by 2t on them on Combustion alone, I think. We'd be done too fast with Mass Production and would only lower the cost...

> As to the amount of gold it would take to upgrade all of our forces I
> don't have the numbers with me, but it's basically 120 gold per
> upgrade for each one of them. We have about 18-20 units to upgrade so
> it's in the neighborhood of 2400 gold for all of them. I'm currently
> trying to peddle communism to the last two teams that don't have it
> (GoW and RP) for some gold or techs so we'll see how that goes.

This sounds doable. How fast would you like to upgrade? I think we should be able to send you 100gpt to keep you researching at 100% plus 120gpt to let you upgrade one unit per turn. This might improve soon
- I am not exactly sure how much we gain by growing our cities past pop 12, which is going to happen very soon.

Would that be acceptable?

We shall, of course, do our best to deliver the upgrade gold faster to you, but I am trying to be reasonable here... 220gpt is what we can afford at this very moment and at least for the next 5 turns. Also, we shall need some gold for our own upgrades.

Our likely research path from here is going to be Scientific method - Mass Production. Then Atomic Theory, Electronics, Motorized Transport, Flight, and Radio (Flight looks like a very good one for you, after you finish Espionage... it's a mandatory, yet basically dead-end tech...). GoW/GS/ND tech-embargo us, so we have to research everything ourselves, thus being able to deliver all techs you might need to proceed to the modern era. If you trade your techs to others, you might prefer gold over techs or pick optional techs.

Have a nice weekend,
Radek

[Rhothaerill]

And my response

Hi Radek

I finally had a chance to get to Civ today. Our current science output at 100% is 263 beakers per turn. That will obviously start rising dramatically in a few turns though as our cities grow to size 7, and then a few turns after we'll be joining about 20+ workers to the various cities.

Regarding unit upgrades it will cost us 2140 gold to upgrade all our laggardly units to current standards. Regarding how fast we want to upgrade, that is more dependent on your team if you're going to subsidize our upgrades. I want to get the remaining catapults upgraded first, then the pikes. The pikes aren't quite as important as the catapults in my opinion.

Researching flight after espionage is fine with us. Espionage shouldn't take us all that long to research so we'll have flight ready for you before you need it to advance to the next age...plus we get that nice free tech in the next age too. :-)

Thanks

Jared (Rhoth)

[Beta]

Nuff said.

[Rhothaerill]

Message from Vondrack. I'll respond later today after I get home from work.

Hi, guys!

Just sent you the usual amount of gold (is it still enough to cover
your deficit plus upgrade one unit every turn?), some workers, and
Scientific Method. Mass Production coming your way in 4t.

Just a couple of things:

1. Unless we expressly tell you otherwise, you are free to sell any
tech we gift (or have gifted) you. We are now completely out of the
trading loop, with others basically embargoing us - GoW/GS because
we've got nothing they'd lack and ND because they want GoW/GS to be as
much of a threat to us as possible (and perhaps because they fear
repercussions if they traded with us). ATM, GoW & ND lack Scientific
Method - if you are able to sell it to either of them (or to RP) for
anything even remotely reasonable (gold, luxuries, workers), then go
for it - whatever you are able to make out of a deal, it's yours.

2. Unless you have already arranged deals for Espionage, we'd prefer
if you kept the tech for yourself and us only.

3. How many workers you can still reasonably use? No problem keeping
them coming, just wanna have some idea about the scope of it...

4. What is your current beaker output?

5. How much gold needed to finish upgrading your military? (I guess it
will be around 1500g, but I admit I am not keeping track of the gold)

6. After finishing Mass Production, we will most probably plunge back
into the lower tech-tree branch and do Atomic Theory and Electronics
ASAP. We would like you to go for Flight after finishing Espionage -
still at your maximum research rate.

Well, that's it. Let us know if you need anything.

Best regards,
Radek aka vondrack
Legoland

[Rhothaerill]

Response to Vondrack

Hi Vondrack. The gold you're sending is still enough to cover our expenses and one upgrade by about 2 gold.
1. We can work on seeing what we can get for scientific method, but communism wasn't wanted by either GoW or Roleplay...probably because they both just kept forgetting there was a deal on the table.
2. We haven't arranged any deals for it yet so we won't
3. In two turns we will be joining about 20 workers to our cities. We'll still need more after that though since most of our cities don't grow very fast on their own. We still have a 2-turn worker pump going too.
4. Current beaker output is 325 beakers at 100%. That will go up moderately significantly in 2 turns.
5. There is only one more catapult to upgrade which was my primary concern. After that are 9 pikeman and 2 rifleman, and then finally 4 Immortals. We'll take as much as you want to give for our upgrade efforts.
6. We'll have espionage in 3 turns and then head for flight.

Thanks again for the recent and soon to come techs. We should have a few destroyers popping out soon so we'll have a decent navy on its way.

Rhoth

[Rhothaerill]

From Vondrack

Hi, Jared!

> The gold you're sending is still enough to cover our expenses and one
> upgrade by about 2 gold.

OK, I will make a note to send a little bit more next turn.

> We can work on seeing what we can get for scientific method, but
> communism wasn't wanted by either GoW or Roleplay...probably because
> they both just kept forgetting there was a deal on the table.

Understood. It's unlikely you'd score any huge success marketing those techs... I just wanted you to know that you can try your luck, if you wish. Nobody will buy from us - simply because we are Legoland.

> We haven't arranged any deals for it yet so we won't

Cool, that's great. Others will either have to spend time researching Espionage themselves or live without spies. Both options help us quite some.

> In two turns we will be joining about 20 workers to our cities.
> We'll still need more after that though since most of our cities don't
> grow very fast on their own. We still have a 2-turn worker pump going
> too.

Wow, 20 workers - that should have quite some effect! We have one 1t pump and one 2t pump, plus a camp spitting an excess worker every 7t.
We are going to add most of our workers to cities this coming turn, keeping only a minimal staff to cope with pollution. But the pumps shall stay on for the foreseeable future.

> Current beaker output is 325 beakers at 100%. That will go up
> moderately significantly in 2 turns.

Great. Absolutely great. You guys are becoming very fine researchers!
Flight in 12-13t will help us big time. We should be able to do like 3 techs in the meantime (perhaps bit less, Atomic Theory and Electronics are quite costly and we may need 5t instead of 4t per each one of them
- but we shall see how it turns out after adding all the workers and completing few more unis here). Perhaps you will be able to slow down a bit, allowing us to invest a bit more into our own research (we are currently running on a pretty much balanced budget even with all the gold flowing to you - but that's because we've been doing fairly cheap techs).

That should leave Radio (the only remaining mandatory tech) and Amphibious Warfare (strategically too important to be ignored) to be researched prior to entering the modern era. Who knows, maybe we will not be that much behind - and your free modern tech will certainly help, too.

> There is only one more catapult to upgrade which was my primary
> concern. After that are 9 pikeman and 2 rifleman, and then finally 4
> Immortals. We'll take as much as you want to give for our upgrade
> efforts.

Well, we basically consider it our duty to fund ALL of your upgrades, at least as long as you are researching at maximum speed. The gold shall keep flowing in, I am just not sure we'll be able to keep it 120gpt when we go for the costly techs (Atomic Theory & Electronics).

> We'll have espionage in 3 turns and then head for flight.

Great, thanks.

> Thanks again for the recent and soon to come techs. We should have a
> few destroyers popping out soon so we'll have a decent navy on its
> way.

Perfect. Just an idea here... I know it may be a bit premature, but I thought I'd mention it. You are our best (and only!) ally, but at the same time, our Achilles' heel - since we would have to (and would!) fully commit to your defense if you were attacked.

If I was GS or GoW, I would use a diversionary attack at Vox to suck at least some Legoland forces in to Voxtavia - and then cut railroads to make sure they will not be able to fight wherever the real landing happens.

I was thinking of how to prevent that - first, we can keep workers on the key tiles. But there are too many and it would only be a matter of bringing enough bombardment power to cut the RRs for that one crucial turn. The other idea I have had was to have a backup naval route...
such a route would require us to have one city in Voxtavia, to be able to ferry troops back and forth without losing their movement points.

However, any city transfer destroys cultural improvements, so we'd better use some "inferior" city of yours. But there are none like that, right? So - what about keeping an odd settler in reserve? There is a spot between Phoenix and Lux Invicta (SE-SE of L.I.) you could build a temporary port in case of emergency. You'd build it on your turn, gift it to us and we'd then use it to get whatever would be needed either in or out of Voxtavia (our ferry fleet would anchor W-NW of Port Hammer).

What do you think? It's just brainstorming for the moment - naval bombardment is only getting into play and bombers are still few turns away. But I believe we should start thinking about a war. One is sure to come - GS knows their shield lead over us is very slim and our fast research rate must be worrying them... they are sitting on a huge pile of gold (like 7000+ gold, we found out by investigating Cyclone two turns ago) and we seriously consider the possibility of them doing something, ahem, unreasonable in a relatively near future - before their tech lead wanes.

So - those were just some thoughts...

Take care,
Radek

[Rhothaerill]

Response to Vondrack

Hi Vondrack,

Regarding the gold, since we will be joining 20+ workers in 2 turns that will free up that much gold from our expenses. We'll replace it soon enough with naval expenses I imagine, but for now we'll be fine with the 220 for our expenses and an upgrade.

I plan on keeping our worker pump operational for awhile too. We won't have nearly as much pollution as you do as only a couple of our cities will even be able to grow beyond size 12, but I eventually want to have a few for pollution duty as well as growing all our cities to their maximum potential much quicker than they otherwise could.

After flight is done we can discuss our options from there. If you need us to continue full bore research we can do that, but if you need your gold for research then we can scale back a bit too. Depending on what you need we might be able to do amphibious warfare for you while you do radio and jump both of us ahead to the next age where we'll get that nice free tech.

If you can't fund all of our upgrades that's fine. I wanted to have the catapults upgraded to artillery first and that's almost done. Then we'll upgrade the pikes for support. If the Immortals don't get upgraded I might just disband them in favor of newly built units. We'll see what happens. I've been setting New Voice up to be the primary veteran builder while the other cities build naval units and bombard units.

The settler idea is an excellent one. I will make plans to add one into the works right away. Always better to be prepared now in case they attack sooner rather than later. I'd definitely prefer a settler to transferring a city since we have libraries and universities in all of them, though the alternative of losing the ability to have you defend us is much worse. At the moment (before bombers) the only way they could cut any of the Vox rail tiles to prevent a strike is to get into that little sea between us, but it would be much easier to cut one or two tiles around Invoice.

Thanks again. As soon as the save is passed on to me I'll send it off to you.

Rhoth

[Rhothaerill]

From Vondrack. There was another one that came in yesterday that I haven't had a chance to log or respond to yet. I'll try to get to that later.

Hi, Jared!

Just an idea here... are you able to offer us any kind of a resource?
Like, say... iron, horses, or saltpeter (something you are not going
to need)? 'cause if you're we could try setting the dyes deal as "dyes
for something", hopefully getting rid of those annoying bumps every 20
turns...

Maybe I am asking a stupid question here... but last turn, I was
suprised to see that we were able to offer you horses, which you seem
to have connected...!?

Cheers,
Radek

[Rhothaerill]

My response

Hi Radek,

I think the only resource we have that we won't be needing (after we finish our last rail) is iron. The reason we don't have horses is an ongoing deal with Roleplay that funds a few things since we weren't planning on building any cavalry.

Instead what we might be able to do is set it up as a dyes for 1gpt deal. I know that can continue on past 20 turns since that's the way our current deal with Roleplay is.

I still haven't responded to your other email as I haven't had a chance to open the old save and check our citizen needs, but I should be able to respond either tonight or tomorrow.

Rhoth

[Rhothaerill]

Response from Radek

Hi Jared,

> I think the only resource we have that we won't be needing (after we
> finish our last rail) is iron.  The reason we don't have horses is an
> ongoing deal with Roleplay that funds a few things since we weren't
> planning on building any cavalry.

> Instead what we might be able to do is set it up as a dyes for 1gpt
> deal. I know that can continue on past 20 turns since that's the way
> our current deal with Roleplay is.

Cool - I did not know that a lux-for-gpt would auto-extend past the initial twenty turns. You'd be unable to offer iron to us, as we have some of our own (and are not really into cutting it , so this would probably be a fine way out.

On the turn the current deal expires, just offer 1gpt as unaccepted. I will counter with the dyes and you will accept on the following turn.

In case you miss the turn (I'm never sure how the "details" tab should look like on the very last turn a deal is in effect - it's prolly just "dyes" with no number, but I am not sure), at least remind me to offer you dyes, so that you can throw in that 1gpt and send it as accepted back to us a turn later.

Or, you can keep offering 1gpt every turn, just for sure. As long as we cannot counter with dyes, I will simply dismiss the trading screen.
As soon as I have the option of countering with dyes, I would do so.

Whatever works for you.

Should the delivery of Espionage mess in, you can safely delay it - we have the Intelligence Agency prebuild under way, but it'll be finished only in 6 turns, so sending Espionage only after sorting out this dyes stuff will be fine.

> I still haven't responded to your other email as I haven't had a
> chance to open the old save and check our citizen needs, but I should
> be able to respond either tonight or tomorrow.

No problem, the game is on hold again anyway. Wonder what it takes to run into SO many bugs... we are micromanaging like crazy, too, but do not have the kind of troubles GS seem to be cursed with.

Cheers,
Radek

[Rhothaerill]

And the email from yesterday that I haven't responded to yet (I'll respond tomorrow...I was too busy setting up the C3C Classics game that most of you are involved in )

Hi Jared,
(and Bruce

> Regarding the gold, since we will be joining 20+ workers in 2 turns
> that will free up that much gold from our expenses. We'll replace it
> soon enough with naval expenses I imagine, but for now we'll be fine
> with the 220 for our expenses and an upgrade.

OK, cool. 220gpt should be no problem at least until you finish upgrading all your units. Actually, 220gpt is just about what we can afford to send without touching our savings.

> I plan on keeping our worker pump operational for awhile too. We won't
> have nearly as much pollution as you do as only a couple of our cities
> will even be able to grow beyond size 12, but I eventually want to
> have a few for pollution duty as well as growing all our cities to
> their maximum potential much quicker than they otherwise could.

Can you give me at least an estimate of how many workers from us you will be able to use? If it's going to be a significant number, we would consider setting up one more worker pump... also, depending on what the timeline for your following research projects will be, we may temporarily prioritize adding workers to our own cities (since it seems you will be "fast enough" anyway).

> After flight is done we can discuss our options from there. If you
> need us to continue full bore research we can do that, but if you need
> your gold for research then we can scale back a bit too.
> Depending on what you need we might be able to do amphibious warfare
> for you while you do radio and jump both of us ahead to the next age
> where we'll get that nice free tech.

Well, we shall see what your beaker output is after you add all those workers this coming turn. Basically, here is the tentative research timeline we are currently working with:

1110AD - Mass Production discovered
1160AD - Atomic Theory discovered
1200AD - Electronics discovered
1240AD - Motorized Transport discovered

Not sure how long it will take us to chew through Radio, but for the sake of simplicity, let's assume just 4t:

1280AD - Radio discovered

So... means that in 1290AD, you will receive Radio from us and enter the Modern Era, getting your free tech. It would be optimal to start researching whatever Tier 2 tech you'd be able to immediately.

I believe that you are going to finish Espionage in 1100AD, right?
That would be 19 more turns to do Flight and Amphibious Warfare. We'd prefer getting Flight ASAP (to be able to build us some airforce), but once Flight is discovered (something like 10t, I imagine), it would probably be better to slow down so that Amphibious takes you exactly those 8-9 remaining turns. Would allow us to max our own research, making sure we do Radio really in 4t.

> If you can't fund all of our upgrades that's fine. I wanted to have
> the catapults upgraded to artillery first and that's almost done.
> Then we'll upgrade the pikes for support. If the Immortals don't get
> upgraded I might just disband them in favor of newly built units.
> We'll see what happens. I've been setting New Voice up to be the
> primary veteran builder while the other cities build naval units and
> bombard units.

For the moment, it does not look like a problem to keep sending those 220gpt, so unless something bad happens, you should be able to upgrade one unit every turn.

> The settler idea is an excellent one. I will make plans to add one
> into the works right away. Always better to be prepared now in case
> they attack sooner rather than later. I'd definitely prefer a settler
> to transferring a city since we have libraries and universities in all
> of them, though the alternative of losing the ability to have you
> defend us is much worse. At the moment (before
> bombers) the only way they could cut any of the Vox rail tiles to
> prevent a strike is to get into that little sea between us, but it
> would be much easier to cut one or two tiles around Invoice.

Cool. As of next turn, I will start withdrawing some of our caravels towards Port Hammer, upgrading them there and anchoring W-NW of Port Hammer.

BTW... GS acquired rubber last turn and most likely upgraded all their defenders (went from weak to average vs. us - but we still have like 85% rifles, only starting the real infantry and navy deal here .
It's sort of weird, as upgrading NOW makes little sense - draws attention while it's not really time to invade anywhere yet (they will need tanks and marines to do that). The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that they do not really trust GoW/ND and simply decided to play it safe and upgrade while there's a chance.

Take care,
Radek

[Beta]

This is great reading!

But disbanding the Immortals???!!!

We should at least keep one as the palace guard. After all, they are immortal....


And another thought given vondrack's view of where this game may be going militarily - do we need destroyers? I suspect we will not be involved in any landings or overseas operations. This looks like it is hunker down and race to the finish; and vondrack's comments about us being the weak link make sense. Should we be investing in artilliry and infantry instead?

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Beta
But disbanding the Immortals???!!!

We should at least keep one as the palace guard. After all, they are immortal....

They can only upgrade to a unit that is already inferior to infantry. Right now they're good because we can use them, but once we have more land units they won't be as necessary.

And another thought given vondrack's view of where this game may be going militarily - do we need destroyers? I suspect we will not be involved in any landings or overseas operations. This looks like it is hunker down and race to the finish; and vondrack's comments about us being the weak link make sense. Should we be investing in artilliry and infantry instead?

I still think we need some naval power. Anything we sink before it can land units saves our existing land units. But don't worry, we will be investing in artillery and infantry too. New Voice is almost finished with it's factory and can then pump out veteran infantry in 2-3 turns. Once we have some naval power (destroyers and battleships), the other cities will work on more artillery.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill


They can only upgrade to a unit that is already inferior to infantry. Right now they're good because we can use them, but once we have more land units they won't be as necessary.

I know. There is absolutely no logic behind my argument whatsover. I am being nostalgic. I need that link to the past to hold onto. And we do need a palace guard - don't we? What happens when jon miller comes in after a night of drinking?

[Rhothaerill]

Sent to Lego with the save.

You're up.

< be able to use? If it's going to be a significant number, we would consider
setting up one more worker pump... also, depending on what the timeline for
your following research projects will be, we may temporarily prioritize
adding workers to our own cities (since it seems you will be "fast enough"
anyway).>>
Our estimate of workers needed after the current crop of workers join next
turn is 16 to get up to pre-hospital population maxes. We have three cities
that can go above size 12 so depending on when we can get some hospitals
built that's another 15 to get to full max. Thanks for all the worker help
you've been giving us. :-)