Foreign Affairs Discussion (Vol 3)

[Jon Miller]

This is the thread for discussion of foreign affairs. The thread to post communications is here http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...80#post1743228 .

Jon Miller

[Eli]

Separating the thread to two parts is a great idea.

[Beta]

Jon - it was a good time to start new threads. Thanks!

Please see the latest correspondence from Legoland. Do we want to trade minimaps. They say they have with all the other civs. We may want their first galley to come our way - and for them to be part of a tech trading alliance with us and GS.

At this point - I am willing to go along with the propsal of trading mini-maps. What say ye?

[Beta]

This is a discussion piece and not correspondence. Togas posted this in the intersite game forum, under the title of resurrecting the Machiavellian Society - or ways to get ahead in pbem games. Some interesting stuff - including reference to us in the first point. But I thought all of it was good food for thought.

Machiavellian Society

It's about time this society resurfaced. I'm more than happy to be the first one to bring it back.

Today's discussion topic is: How to be successful in foreign affairs in a PBEM setting..

First off, it needs to be noted that there seem to be distinctly different styles of head to head play. Some PBEM games are tactical wars with very little correspondence and little active diplomacy. Some games (like the PTW team game) are filled with interaction, propoganda, complex negotiations, and ripe for a situation where the Machivelli Society can prosper.

I'll start out with 4 things I've learned, and some examples of each.

1) Tech deals can be negotiated far before tech is actually received.

While it's far easier and less confusing to line up tech trades after you get a tech, it's far more productive to line up "orders" for your tech turns before you get it. Not only can you ensure that you will receive the fastest possible gain from your tech trades, you will also beat your competators to market if you can get firm deals with other nations for your work before your work (and their work) is ever done. Better yet, if you can get a firm deal to receive someone else's tech you can often get another deal to resell their tech to a neighbor or a nation that is lazy in their own negotiations.

Despite the many things Lux Invicta did in the foreign policy world that were arrogant and foolish, Trip's agressive future tech trade schemes were initially very sucessful, and allowed Lux to function on a minimal research budget while keeping at pace with the rest of the world around them. He also kept his contact with Vox well hidden and pawned off Vox's research as his own to his unsuspecting neighbors.

His mistake was in not blocking the one square that allowed access to Vox. GoW discovered this square, got contact, and destroyed Lux's scheme by releasing the knowledge to others.

2) ANYTHING can be negotiated. Ignore the limited framework Fraxis gives us and get creative. You can negotiate borders, settlement treaties, embargos, information trades, non-trade clauses, research pacts, or even demand that units not cross certain land areas.

We got into an international "scuffle" with GoW in the PTW game when a GoW warrior, doing a casual scout/mapping trip, crossed into an area we had claimed as our domain. Despite the fact that this is perfectly acceptable in the game, we were still "annoyed" by it and were able to use their refusal to leave as a legitimate issue that needed to be resolved. We were later able to bargain for their removal as a pre-condition to carrying through a deal they had counted on doing with us.

Anything can be negotiated.

3) Phrase agreements in ways that favor your agenda.

An "alliance" can be phrased in such a way that it is only activated under specific terms .... terms that you determine. Say you don't want your neighbor to use the alliance as a to go to war? Put in that the alliance is only triggered by one of the allies getting war declared on them by another team. Say you don't want to go to war with X nation -- put in a clause that voids the alliance if you ally goes to war with that nation.

In the PTW Game we created an alliance with Lux Invicta that was purely defensive and was voided if Lux started a war. We then slipped word to Neu Dem at the brink of war that our alliance would be activated if Neu Dem declared war, but not if Lux did. As fate would have it, Lux started the war and Spain was able to escape untouched. (sidenote: The alliance was also due to run out in a turn, and we had purposely stalled negotiations ... see point 4)

4) Active ambassadors are a MUST, as most business need to be tended to quickly, but stalling tactics are extremely simple and effective in PTW.

Don't want to cheese off that neighbor's about his lame proposal or that deal you don't really want to make? Don't get back to them. Forget to respond. Respond late with vague language. Assign someone else to handle a "complex renegotiation" and then act annoyed when that person hasn't yet written back. Stall. Prolong. Bring up other issues and try to tie them to the deal. There are endless ways to very politely say "no" without saying no. Letting deals die while pretending to be reworking them is an excellent smokescreen for a top secret military attack (Pearl Harbor, anyone?)

In the PTW game Trip very persistantly kept on me about redoing the alliance between our nations and I told him we wanted to renew and that I had assigned it to jdjdjd. I told jdjdjd explicitly to add new provisions, make up new terms, and stall like mad on the deal. Jdjdjd also wasn't exceptionally active at the time due to RL work issues... a normally bad trait for an ambassador, but a good trait in this situation... and for three days I was covered because "Jdjdjd should have done that yesterday..." and "I don't understand, jdjdjd is usually very on top of these things. If he doesn't write you by tomorrow, let me know" and so forth. The process was successfully stalled, the treaty would have run out before our intentionally slow reneg process would have concluded.


These are a few examples. Please post other ideas and examples that you have observed ... from your own successful ploys to ones used by your clever opponents.

--Togas

[Dis]

I think we are close enough to map making to trade mini maps. I say yes. And since they already have map making that is even more realistic.

Go ahead and put the message in the bottle and put it in the ocean.

Yes very interesting reading above. Lux should have occupied that spot. Althought that would have tipped off the other teams I'm sure.

He's revealing quite a bit. It's not like this game is over. We still have a long way to go. We could use this information.

Esp. the part about trading a tech you get from someone else. I think they did this with mysticism or something. I think what this shows is that we need to be on top when we research a tech. If we make a deal with a nation like Roleplay. they are going to use that tech to trade with other nations. It is up to us to get the full benefit from every tech we research. So it is up to us to contact other teams before a team like Roleplay does, and try to get more value from our tech.

So what this means is if we tell one team we will trade them Philosophy which we are researching right now. We need to contact other teams at the same time to try to get a deal for philosophy.

[Beta]

Right on, Diss!! This is exactly what we need to do.

One of my concerns is that GS will beat us to the punch - even trading our research. I think we need to reach agreement with them on that point as well. In other words - they do not go off selling a package of Philosophy and Code of Laws at the same time - and taking all our trading partners. Now if they get great deals - and then they pass what they get to us - OK. But I think we need to make sure we stay in some position of leverage. We had that when we were the conduit to the other civs, but not now.

GS has made out like bandits from the early part of this deal. If you stack up what we have given them vs what they have given us. But memories can be short - and if GS feels like we aren't worth being partners with - ... if you see my point.

[Dis]

I say that they can trade their code of laws but not philosphy to anyone. And we can trade philosphy but not code of laws to anyone. At least for 20 turns.

[Beta]

Yes - something like that.

And as mentioned above, we should also bring to their attention that:

We have provided:

bronze working
iron working
warrior code
mysticism
mathematics
and horseback riding when they want it

That is 240 beakers worth - 290 if the take HB riding

They have provided:

The Wheel
Alphabet
Writing

That is 170 beakers worth.

Diss - you did pass them math last turn - didn't you?

[Wittlich]

Good point Beta. I think that they need to be informed of this breakdown of advances...just in case they have forgotten.

[Dis]

actually I didn't pass along math. Are supposed to give them every tech we get? We should get something in return.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by BetaHound
Yes - something like that.

And as mentioned above, we should also bring to their attention that:

We have provided:

bronze working
iron working
warrior code
mysticism
mathematics
and horseback riding when they want it

That is 240 beakers worth - 290 if the take HB riding

They have provided:

The Wheel
Alphabet
Writing

That is 170 beakers worth.

Diss - you did pass them math last turn - didn't you?

what will it be afeter code of laws/ philosophy?

Jon Miller

[Beta]

I am playing the save now and have passed math to GS. If we do not want to do this - speak now. The trade treaty we agreed to more or less says this is what we should be doing. I guess we would see Gs paying us back over the next couple of techs through their higher research rate. But as the chart shows - we have kept them in the game as far as technology is concerned.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by BetaHound
...I guess we would see GS paying us back over the next couple of techs through their higher research rate. But as the chart shows - we have kept them in the game as far as technology is concerned.

And that, I believe is the answer we need from GS - What are they planning to do for us to "even-out" the playing field?

[HarryH]

As I was going through the huge FA thread I thought what a great deal GS had. You could have left them behind if you wanted to. What we have now is, hopefully, a very good friend. We will have to wait and see what that gives us and how long it lasts.

As for the next tech I was originally thinking about Map Making. I am reconsidering since Legoland has it and others may be close. We will have to see how much quicker GS will complete Code of Laws before we complete Philosophy and what they will do while waiting for us.

[Dis]

they will probably build up gold. And then go for the Republic.

Their higher research rate should benefit us, but it may take a while.

but we might as well put up mathematics. If we are going to act as one nation. Sometimes it doesn't feel like it though. We don't have much correspondance.