Foreign Affairs Discussion (Vol 3)

[HarryH]

Here is the post by realpolitic:

Honesty is the best policy - at least early in the game


The first team to get beaten in the intrasite game was Lux Invicta, because of it's dishonesty. I propose we at least start off being honest.

This is what happened:

4 of 6 of us start on 1 continent
Much discussion is made of tech trades
That discussion turns to who can be trusted.

We discuss who to attack - Lux or New Demogyptia - there is some concern about ND's UU -(they're Arabs) by it's decided that the most important issue is trust and now Lux is history.

Now that I re-read it, I see he didn't say anything about not trusting ND.

[Beta]

I posted the most recent letter from Togas in the communication file. What is interesting is his statement that if his previous letter had anything to do with the demise of Lux, he would feel terrible. Also note Pnazer32's one word note in the public announcement thread - "oops". Which is a clear reference to his letter.

And these were the two straws which broke the camels back. If only they knew. I think I will find a subtle way of letting them know.

Sharing the guilt will make me feel better.

[Beta]

Harry - what is interesting is that even in the ISDG forum, popular opinion is pretty well neutral, if not somewhat against Lux. And even more interesting are the comments from the team members - I don't think they had any idea what was really going on either.

It may explain why they are not lining up at the door to join Vox.

[Dis]

yes I think Trip had almost complete control over that team.

The other team members probably voted in polls and had some minor input. But I think trip just did what he wanted anyways.

Just a hunch.

[Wittlich]

I agree.

Concerning why Lux personnel are not knocking on our door to get in - Well, we were the civ that killed them off after all. Which is ironic since because of our current size, we would be the civ that would be able to take more members on. Oh well, I'm not going to loose any sleep over it. I hope none of you loose any sleep either over why Lux members haven't asked to join us.

[Beta]

More tidbits from the ISDG forum. We are getting a pretty good understanding of the lay of the land and the politics fom the dicsussion of what went wrong with Lux.

Posted by Trip:

I'm not too favorable about talking about anything DG-related, but for the sake of clarification and accuracy...

Donegeal and Unorthodox:

In regards to city placement: one source of horses was directly in between ND, GoW and Lux. It was our one shot at securing them. If another team had gotten that city site (and ND missed it by a turn), then Lux would have had NO resources at all. Yes, none. ND was planning on building its city slightly east of where it did, and would have gotten both iron and horses with it. Had we not placed the city when and where we did, Lux would have had no resources, and ND would have had 2 iron and 2 horses (which they have now). Tell me, what happens when ND has a monopoly of resources, an itchy trigger finger, plenty of excuses to go to war and a neighbor with nothing better than Archers?

Also, the big point, that everyone but some of my team and ND is either ignorant of or just plain ignores: In some discussions I had with Darekill, he revealed to me that ND was going to attack one of the teams on the continent. The fact that Lux was close and had some 'border infractions' just made it easier for them to justify a war. ND feared being surrounded by 3 Apolyton teams, being the only outsiders, and knew they either had to attack 1 or more of them, or make them fight each other. So the whole argument that Lux "provoked ND to attack it with its irresponsible behavior" is a farce, and a moot point as well. As I was often tempted to say, "people should not assume things about situations they know nothing about."

E_T:

I've seen quite a bit of double-dealing from the southern end of the continent as well. Disguised as a 'stall', Togas informed me that GoW and RP had made a deal regarding Writing just out of the blue without even consulting or informing Lux in any way, while we were in the middle of negotiations for the tech. That was the end of that. I wouldn't exactly consider that 'straight-faced' dealing. And that's just one of many things that stands out in my mind as far as RP diplomacy. I won't isolate RP though, because every team was engaged in 'double-dealing', or 'favorable negotations', as I like to call them, in some way or another. At this point, fostering FULL trust between any two teams who had already dealt with each other at all was basically impossible. It's cover your back or be burned.

Also, I fail to see the whole "Not allowing your concerned neighbors try to broker a peaseful settlement to the problem" thing you brought up. I talked with Togas quite often about talking with ND and encouraged him to try to negotiate peace. So either A) Your team was misinformed, or B) Something that Lux requested and expected to happen didn't. Or perhaps you can clarify the situation for me, if neither of these is the case.

While Lux did make mistakes, as every team did, the vast majority of the mistakes apparent to the other teams not directly involved are really only in the eye of the beholder. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if another team had been given the Lux starting position.

[Wittlich]

Interesting that Trip made no mention of Vox, which I guess, is a good thing.

[Beta]

I think that is a bit of sideshow to the main discussion of what happened between Lux, ND, GoW and RP. The discussion is intended to see if we collectively learned any lessons which could be applied to the intersite game.

But yes - I am pleased that Vox is not discussed at all.

And I am a bit upset that no one from Lux has asked to join. But I'm not losing sleep over it.

I would be really curious as to how other teams see us - we must be somewaht of an enigma to them. Maybe that is good. Don't want anyone taking us for garnted.

And I don't think we will be the next team eliminated Jon. I think in the next few turns we are going to be able to solidify our position. We should not make Lux's mistake though - we should make sure we can defend ourselves if need be. Iron and immortals will guarantee our continued existence. As will staying on good terms with GS. We have to make sure that it is never cost beneficial for them to try and take us out. Which means making the cost very high and/or ensuring they see the benefits of continued friendship.

[Wittlich]

My thought exactly Beta.

[Dis]

yes hooking up the Iron is important now. We should consider that. Because GS probably has a few swordsman running around and we have none.

But other than that, I think we can maintain good relations with GS.

I do think that the next nation to go will be one of the ones on the main continent. Either RP or Glory.

[Beta]

I think it will be GoW.

[Dis]

I don't think Trip is going to post his story. He said he has no written history anyways.

[Dis]

so what's the deal with Literature and RP?

I sent a quick note to them that we are not ignoring them. I mentioned I was unfamiliar with any offers they have sent us.

What offer have they sent us?

I assume we are getting literature from GS then? I did mention that at present we aren't ready to make a trade, but I would look into it.

[Jon Miller]

I think we want to spend the 120 G for mapmaking

than have GS do half the loot?

(unless they acn get a better deal)

Jon Miller

[Beta]

You will see the latest communication from GoW in the other thread. The other option on trading is to offer them gold - say 40 gold, plus literatue, which they do not have. Now I suspect they may have a deal in the works with RP, where we got it from via GS. But if we give them a better deal, and it upsets relationships on the continent - which is called Bob by the way, then so much the better.

You guys Ok with proposing this deal?