Foreign Affairs - Volume 2

[Wittlich]

Thanks a good point Dissident.....The options are:

1. Trade Iron working for Alphabet with GS. (prior agreement)

2. Loan a city to Lux for Alphabet. (then Lux can just trade iron working to GS without our knowledge)

Simplifying the choices makes it rather clear.

I have to agree that we might as well trade GS iron working for alphabet, since either way, they will get iron working soon enough. Plus, it is what was agreed upon earlier - we shouldn't give the impression as a nation that goes against their word this early in the game...

[Jon Miller]

we should be able to get alphabet from lux another way

trading a city for it (even just a bit) would be horrid

we want to use our trading position to catch up

Lux will deal with GS instead of us if they can (We learn too slow)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

reply from GS

I've presented your message to the team, but here's my own, personal reaction. Our original arrangement was designed so that the first stage of the trade would give you a higher-value tech and the second would give us a higher-value tech so that the two exchanges would balance. Now you are asking for two consecutive exchanges where you end up with the higher value. Does that seem fair to you? It certainly doesn't to me - especially not when you sound like you want to then trade Writing to another civ to further enrich yourselves.

I'm willing to propose the following counter-offer to Gathering Storm:

(1) We go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet now. (That helps both of us compared with if you would make an exchange with our rival to your north (which I suspect is Lux)).

(2) When we get Writing, we trade it to you for whatever contacts with other civs you have at the time.

(3) We retain an exclusive right to trade Writing to other civs. Considering that compared with our original agreement, you will be getting Writing for nothing more than contact information, that does not seem like an unreasonable stipulation.

(4) You agree not to try to renegotiate the deal further, even if an opportunity comes up where you might be able to get a deal you like better on Writing elsewhere.

I don't know how my own team will react to this, and it's certainly not an official proposal yet, but I'll go ahead and bring it up with you at the same time I do with Gathering Storm so you folks can go ahead and start thinking about whether you would agree to it if we make it (or something similar) an official offer.

Nathan

quote:


I think that Beta expressed our concerns, but did so improperly. Looking over his messages, he told you where we would have been if we had not traded for Iron Working (With our close neighbors to the north). I must admit that we are somewhat worried about your nation, appearing to research so much faster than us and to be better located also. In any case, we just got Iron Working recently (which means that we could do our deal), but would rather get alphabet much much more cheaply from another source. Is there anyway we could get writing from you for ironworking? It is what the other civ wants right now, actually, but we cannot provide them with it in any timely matter (alphabet is so common for them that they are willing to give it away for cheap). We would be willing to give you iron working now, in exchange for writing later.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

my intended reply (notice how both of them want to meet eachother, this would put us out of the loop and cause our eventual loss to GS)

most assuredly writing would be only the first step

I personally am (I admit this is unofficial) visualising a trading block of our 3 nations

I assure you that we would pass on what was gained from our other neighbor, in exchange for getting future stuff from you

(with which we will give to the other trading partner to get future stuff to give to you)

I have not been that involved with this, but I think that the other civ would give us something you would want for writing, which we would than pass off to you

[Jon Miller]

sent


most assuredly writing would be only the first step

I personally am (I admit this is unofficial) visualising a trading block of our 3 nations

I assure you that we would pass on what was gained from our other neighbor, in exchange for getting future stuff from you

(with which we will give to the other trading partner to get future stuff to give to you)

I have not been that involved with this, but I think that the other civ would give us something you would want for writing, which we would than pass off to you

I will further my idea (and your message) to the other members and find out what we could get from the other civ for writing

I erpsoanlly would like to see the three of us conduct our research in a manner by which non is wasted (we were very upset by the waste from our research into ironworking)

Jon Miller

[Beta]

Jeeeesh. Leave for a couple of hours to do grocery shopping and driveway shoveling and look what happens.

I am fine with the proposals. As I said in my much longer note - we would have to come clean with GS one way or the other. But I agree with Diss and the sentiments expressed above. A definite 'no' to the city trade. And I fully support jon's notion of us staying as the go between. If they meet - we will be dropped out of the loop in a hurry.

(I still say we need to talk to Neu Demogyptica. )

And does this mean I'm fired from my VFA job??

[Jon Miller]

no

you will return to it after a bit

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

talkign with GS

I've presented your message to the team, but here's my own, personal reaction. Our original arrangement was designed so that the first stage of the trade would give you a higher-value tech and the second would give us a higher-value tech so that the two exchanges would balance. Now you are asking for two consecutive exchanges where you end up with the higher value. Does that seem fair to you? It certainly doesn't to me - especially not when you sound like you want to then trade Writing to another civ to further enrich yourselves.

I'm willing to propose the following counter-offer to Gathering Storm:

(1) We go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet now. (That helps both of us compared with if you would make an exchange with our rival to your north (which I suspect is Lux)).

(2) When we get Writing, we trade it to you for whatever contacts with other civs you have at the time.

(3) We retain an exclusive right to trade Writing to other civs. Considering that compared with our original agreement, you will be getting Writing for nothing more than contact information, that does not seem like an unreasonable stipulation.

(4) You agree not to try to renegotiate the deal further, even if an opportunity comes up where you might be able to get a deal you like better on Writing elsewhere.

I don't know how my own team will react to this, and it's certainly not an official proposal yet, but I'll go ahead and bring it up with you at the same time I do with Gathering Storm so you folks can go ahead and start thinking about whether you would agree to it if we make it (or something similar) an official offer.

Nathan

quote:


I think that Beta expressed our concerns, but did so improperly. Looking over his messages, he told you where we would have been if we had not traded for Iron Working (With our close neighbors to the north). I must admit that we are somewhat worried about your nation, appearing to research so much faster than us and to be better located also. In any case, we just got Iron Working recently (which means that we could do our deal), but would rather get alphabet much much more cheaply from another source. Is there anyway we could get writing from you for ironworking? It is what the other civ wants right now, actually, but we cannot provide them with it in any timely matter (alphabet is so common for them that they are willing to give it away for cheap). We would be willing to give you iron working now, in exchange for writing later.


Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I've already had one Gathering Storm member express misgivings about the two of us conducting informal negotiations more or less behind the team's back. I don't mind "cutting through the red tape" on matters that are truly urgent, and I think everyone on the team seems to understand that need. But the scale of what you're proposing regarding a long-term three-way partnership is simply too big to be handled without giving the rest of the team more opportunity for input. (It's not that we aren't interested - I've had a similar idea myself - but it's a bit too big a commitment to rush into in a single afternoon.)

Also, frankly, the e-mail/PM format suits my styles of thinking and writing better. It gives me the opportunity to look back over my words and ideas and make a few revisions before I send a message. (It's not rare at all for me to think of additional nuances as I go along.) I'd lose that in a chat-type format.

Once we're closer to completing an arrangement, a chat system (perhaps a private IRC chat room so whoever wants to from both teams could participate) could be useful for ironing out details. But for the moment, I'd rather stick to e-mail and PMs where I can clear what I say with the rest of the team before sending it. I'm sorry if this is less convenient than you'd prefer, but I hope you can understand.

Nathan

[Jon Miller]

Official Message RE: Tech Situation
Greetings People of Vox Controli,

Gathering Storm has agreed to make my earlier offer regarding Alphabet, Iron Working, Writing, and contacts official. The concept of a three-way partnership is definitely an interesting one, but our diplomats and economists really need more time to consider the issue before we can make any kind of commitment, even an informal one. In the meantime, we need to get Iron Working now so we can move on with our research into Writing without undercutting our ability to maintian parity in defensive technologies. Your failure to keep your commitment in a timely manner has already cost us valuable time, and while we can understand your desire to renegotiate in light of changing circumstances, any further delay can only hurt relations between our peoples.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[Jon Miller]

nbarclay wrote on 26-01-2003 19:02:

Greetings Jon and Vox Controli,

I don't mean to offend, but such an obsessiion with tier 2 vs. tier 1 seems to reflect a lack of understanding of the game's mechanics. Alphabet, cost 5 in the editor, is the most expensive of the tier 1 techs. It costs two and a half times as much as Pottery or Ceremonial Burial, and only one sixth less than Iron Working. The original deal was deliberately balanced so that each side would contribute techs with a total cost of 9 in the editor to the exchange. And if that was not sufficient for you, you should have brought up the tier 2 vs. tier 1 issue when we were negotiating the original deal.

Yes, Iron Working and Writing are both tier 2 techs, but Iron Working is only cost 6, while Writing is cost 8. So in your revised proposal, you would be getting the more expensive tech out of both deals.

And while throwing in Warrior Code would balance the values, (aside from our 12 wasted gold from abandoning our Bronze Working research), that is not what we really want. What we really want is contact so that we aren't stuck with you playing middleman where any equal-value tech deal we make with you gives you the opportunity to gain extra profit selling or trading to your other neighbor. Under such circumstances, nominally equal trades are very heavily in your favor. (For example, I can't help but wonder whether you might have traded The Wheel, which you got from us, in order to get Iron Working earlier than you would have otherwise. If so, BetaHound's contention that the deal favored us is completely laughable.)

And your inclination to seek to renegotiate agreements that have already been made only serves to make the situation worse. Even if we make an agreement, can we trust you to keep it? And do we really want to have all of our trade deals filter through a neighbor we are not entirely sure we can trust?

I still see a lot of promise in the possibility of a three-way partnership, but it would have to be a true partnership of equals, not an arrangement where all trades have to go through Vox as middleman. If you attempt to insist on maintaining your "middleman" status, even in the face of offers that would give you significant value in return for giving it up, you might profit temporarily, but the consequences regarding our desire to maintain a long-term trade relationship with you once that monopoly on contact is broken will be catastrophic. That is all the more true in light of the possibility that had you not blocked Grog's exploration earlier, he might have been able to make contact with the other civilization long ago.

Basically, at this point, you have three choices. You can go through with your original agreement. You can accept our new offer (or perhaps come up with a counter-offer we regard as similarly acceptable, although I can't imagine our going for anything that doesn't address the contact situation), in which case your willingness to give up contact will be counted in your favor in future negotiations. Or you can break the deal outright by demanding renegotiation on terms not truly acceptable to us, in which case even if we accept some sort of deal, you will have destroyed all hope for any kind of partnership that lasts beyond the minute we break your stranglehold on contact.

My apologies if this is not worded as diplomatically as it could be, but I want to make sure you understand the truth of the situation. Yes, you might profit in the short term by forcing us to accept a deal we don't like (assuming we don't just give up on dealing with you altogether), but you need to be fully aware of the long-term price that would come from such a choice.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

actually that is are problem with the other side

they have contact with many people, and have way more techs than either of us (including writing and the like)

they already ahd the wheel, they already had alphabet, they already have everything (the civs on the mainland worry us a lot for being way ahead of us)

our idea is that we will trade you all we have that you don't, and you will do the same

than neither has to worry about tech acendency of the other, or unfairness

the reason why we don't want to give you contact yet is because we are worried about beign gained up on, once there is a history of peace between us we would be happy to give you contact

we are busy studyign something they don't have, mysticism, which if we have a trade treaty we will give you also

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Re: RE: Official Message RE: Tech Situation

quote:

nbarclay wrote on 26-01-2003 19:02:

Greetings Jon and Vox Controli,

I don't mean to offend, but such an obsessiion with tier 2 vs. tier 1 seems to reflect a lack of understanding of the game's mechanics. Alphabet, cost 5 in the editor, is the most expensive of the tier 1 techs. It costs two and a half times as much as Pottery or Ceremonial Burial, and only one sixth less than Iron Working. The original deal was deliberately balanced so that each side would contribute techs with a total cost of 9 in the editor to the exchange. And if that was not sufficient for you, you should have brought up the tier 2 vs. tier 1 issue when we were negotiating the original deal.

Yes, Iron Working and Writing are both tier 2 techs, but Iron Working is only cost 6, while Writing is cost 8. So in your revised proposal, you would be getting the more expensive tech out of both deals.

And while throwing in Warrior Code would balance the values, (aside from our 12 wasted gold from abandoning our Bronze Working research), that is not what we really want. What we really want is contact so that we aren't stuck with you playing middleman where any equal-value tech deal we make with you gives you the opportunity to gain extra profit selling or trading to your other neighbor. Under such circumstances, nominally equal trades are very heavily in your favor. (For example, I can't help but wonder whether you might have traded The Wheel, which you got from us, in order to get Iron Working earlier than you would have otherwise. If so, BetaHound's contention that the deal favored us is completely laughable.)



now to addressing singular issues

we did not trade the wheel further on, they already had it

the deal with teir one versus teir two is positional ballance wihtin the civs, if we are trading teir twof ro teir one, than the civ who got the teir 2 would have a much better tech position than we would (tey would gain, we would not)

one point is that at this point they (the other civs) don't all already have teir 2s, they already do have teir 1s

so yes, I would like to trade out, but as I said, we will funnel everything back to you (as part of the trade agreement)

either that or we could try to work it into our trade, but I ahve a hard time to see how to do this

this will make up for both of us being somewhat removed from the rest of the civs (we only have the contact with the one civ, and are refused any more)

it will also make us both fairly reliant upon my neighbor, who we will give you contact with once we trust both of you more

as you can tell I am a plain talker

basically the alphabet trade is not good for us

we are having to trade a teir two tech for the IW, and we would like one back, if we do not have a trade agreement going

the reason why this stuff just came up is because we were nto aware of how the rest of hte civs are trading

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

RE: Re: RE: Official Message RE: Tech Situation

This is getting complicated. I've asked for consent to take this into chat as you proposed earlier, and it looks like there's a consensus that that would be okay. (I've been asked to keep a log, though; I hope that's okay.)

The complicating factor on that is that while I have IceChat (an IRC program), I have almost no experience with it - and none trying to initiate this sort of thing. Do you have compatible software, and do you know enough to get us going?

Nathan

[Jon Miller]

hmmm

GS seems interested in doing the trade deal (completely free exchange of tech)

I did tell them that there is no land bridge

hopefully I am not fired

Jon Miler

[Jon Miller]

GS is deffinitely interested in that

their FA is talking about an allaince

I am liking it

Jon Miller