Rebuilding on Legos Minor

[Beta]

For the New Voice, I am of two minds between a library and market. The library will double science output - whcih at 100% would give us two more beekers out of the Voice. But I can't see us going to 100% science anytime soon. We need the cash for building - as Harry has pointed out. We also have luxuries coming our way sometime courtesy of GoW, so a marketplace does seem to make more sense.

And culture is a moot point for us now.

As to the coastal cities - yes - harbours. I do not like the tax collector idea too much. I would still like the cities to grow, and by the time they reach pop 2, we can afford some harbours to get food from the sea. It is going to be a struggle. And yes Harry - I think some modeling of the various alternatives is best. One high producing food city would have been nice to pop feed the other cities. Oh well - we work with what we have.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Beta
I am reviewing your post Harry - but I did have one question I originally posted in the moves thread.

I am not criticizing, but trying to understand. Can you explain the benefits behind planting and cutting forests, relative to getting the road network in, or building mines on the plains tiles? I have obviously used forest clearing before - and even the occasional tree-planting when I did not have much else to do with the workers, but I have not used the tactic to the degree you are Harry.

The benefit of planting and clearing forest before mining a tile is the 10 shield gain. The two northern cities will be our worker pumps for later use in building the population of the other towns. So we want to get those two cities their harbors fairly quickly so they can start growing for future use. Unless we rush-build the harbors with hard-earned cash it will take a while to build those harbors straight out. But with the ten shield boosts it will be a lot easier. We have plenty of workers right now and the industrious trait so I think it's an excellent use of the talents to get our future pop centers growing now. I don't often use the tactic as a shield boost except in the early game, but we are essentially back to the early game in terms of tile and city improvements.

As to The New Voice, I would prefer switching to a marketplace and switching the scientist to Poortown.

[HarryH]

One high producing food city would have been nice to pop feed the other cities. Oh well - we work with what we have.

That high producing food city will be the one N of The New Voice next to the fish. It will produce +4 food/turn. With a granary it will grow every 3 turns (while the pop is kept at 6 or less). If you read my description for Anchorage at the top of this thread, my plan is to use it to pop feed the others.

[HarryH]

Re: Lumberjacking

There is no value until electricity in doing anything with the plains. Each city will at most only be able to use two plain or hill tiles, and that will stagnate its growth. Mined hills will provide more shields than mined plains. There is a group of 3 workers on the mountain E of The New Voice. They should complete the road in one or two turns. Then they will move down into the hill and proceed to do roads and mines for the cities in that corner.

There is also a worker on the mountain S of The New Voice building a road. After he completes that road he can either join the others or continue to road paths to the other towns.

For the other workers, we have a lot of workers and currently only one city. They could spend a lot of worker turns moving to some distant tiles to start on roads, or chop forests while a couple of workers work on a road path so they can move quickly when they finish the area around The New Voice. While in anarchy roads and mines provide no benefit to the cities and, for now, there are no other cities. Within a couple of turns after we come out of anarchy the work around The New Voice will be done. Although I keep mentioning that we have only one city now, I am not forgetting about the others. Those three tiles near The New Voice will be used by two cities, The New Voice and Irony. All three tiles will be put to use as soon as we come out of anarchy. I like to maximize worker turns and minimize time they spend just moving around. Doing work around The New Voice while a road is built to the northern grasslands will do that.

As long as I am going to planet and chop a forest in a tile I usually like to do that first since any mine you put down first will need to get done again after the forest is chopped. Why mine twice? There are times when when I will do mine (or irrigation first) and then come back later to planet a chop a forest if I want the shields, but my general rule is to do the forest first so I only have to mine/irrigate once.

As for my overall philosophy, I like a lot of workers. I usually have a stack of them right behind my lines when invading an enemy. They complete a road or railroad so I can quickly get fresh reinforcements to the lines. When a city is captured, they quickly ensure there is adequate food for the city and then do lumberjacking to speed the build of temples and cathedrals. It helps to get the city under control quickly as well as further push my borders into enemy territory. I always have plenty for them to do, including helping newly founded or conquered cities get built up quick. Sort of what we are trying to do here.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill


The benefit of planting and clearing forest before mining a tile is the 10 shield gain. The two northern cities will be our worker pumps for later use in building the population of the other towns. So we want to get those two cities their harbors fairly quickly so they can start growing for future use. Unless we rush-build the harbors with hard-earned cash it will take a while to build those harbors straight out. But with the ten shield boosts it will be a lot easier. We have plenty of workers right now and the industrious trait so I think it's an excellent use of the talents to get our future pop centers growing now. I don't often use the tactic as a shield boost except in the early game, but we are essentially back to the early game in terms of tile and city improvements.

Agreed for the two northern towns to produce harbours and/or granaries. But why around the New Voice where we can build mines and roads and move onto the other cities? I guess that is my questions. Once out of anarchy - a mine will produce 10 extra shields in 10 turns. Which is about the length of time it takes an industrious worker to plant (3) and cut (5) a forest. And that does not consider that the worker could be off building a mine or road somewhere else.

Not trying to be a pain here. This is new ground for me as well, and I am keen to figure out the best options.

[HarryH]

Understood (no pain). Discussion is how we learn from each other and making one (me) try to explain reasoning also makes them (me) take another look, which is the reason I am slow to respond. I want to run an analysis tonight to see if I am right, you are right, or maybe there is a better middle ground. Basically, what I have been doing so far is my instinct from the way I play. This situation is a little different because we are founding a number of cities at once and we have no pre-worked tiles ready for the city. The question is, is my usual strategy the right way for this situation. I want to do some analysis to know for sure. Thanks for asking the question.

My gut told me that the area around The New Voice will support three citizens (two in The New Voice and one in Irony) while Anchorage and Halifax will each support only one and the workers will spend turns just getting there and back so working around The New Voice would provide the most benefit.

Half an analysis: If three workers head off to work the hills to the E/SE that leaves 9 other workers. Two groups of three workers each could sent the settlers towards the Anchorage and Halifax sites while one group of three works the area around The New Voice. The Anchorage/Halifax workers would arrive at the grassland one turn before the settlers arrived at the city site (because the grassland tile to work is one closer). Assuming we are out of anarchy (which it looks like we will be) it would take them one turn to road, which would happen on the same turn the city is founded, and two turns to mine the tile. During the same time three other workers could road and mine the single grassland tile near The New Voice and chop down one forest to reveal the grassland underneath. Two turns after we come out of anarchy and those cities are founded we will have three roaded and mined grassland tiles and one unimproved grassland tile for four cities (Anchorage, Halifax, The New Voice, and Irony) with a total 5 citizens to use. Anchorage will be better off using the fish tile until the grassland is mined so it will grow in 9 turns after being founded while Halifax will take 10 turns. Neither of these cities will need any more tiles until then. The workers near those cities can either work in preparation for what will be needed in 8 turns or spend time moving back to The New Voice area. Either way, they will not contribute anything for a few turns. One turn to road and two more to mine the unimproved grassland tile near The New Voice, then a turn to move the workers, two more to chop the other forest, one to road, and two to mine.

0 Come out of anarchy, cities founded. 2 R and 1 R&M (*)
1 Same (*)
2 3 R&M, 1 none
3 3 R&M, 1R
4 same
5 4 R&M
6 same
7 same
8 same (forest chopped)
9 Anchorage grows. 4 R&M, 1 unimproved + ?
10 Halifax grows. 4 R&M, 1 R + ?
11 4 R&M, 1 R + ?
12 5 R&M + ?

+ ? = what other work, if any, is done by the workers in the Anchorage and Halifax area.
(*) = Anchorage on fish so one roaded grassland is not being used.

This shows that it takes 12 turns after anarchy and the cities are founded to handle the initial 5 citizens. About this same time the cities of The New Voice and Irony will also grow but there will be no improved hill tiles for them to use.

So, will my plan be better or does my plan need to be adjusted? I know that in my plan Halifax suffers a bit but I think Irony and The New Voice benefit. Do they gain more than Halifax loses and just how much does Halifax lose? I need to do an analysis tonight to find out.

Edit: I just realized I used the wrong work rate. Industrious workers not in anarchy can road a grassland in two turns and mine in three. I need to update my half analysis above. I will do that as part of a more thorough analysis tonight.

[Beta]

Hmm - my suggestion Harry is to proceed as you are planning - and lets see how it works out. I see the logic behind your plan. It will be somewhat of a complex analysis to figure out the exact optimum strategy, so I say go for it.

And it is really kind of interesting to be building essentially a new civilization at this point of the game.

[Jon Miller]

I think we should forget about culture and science and go military

provide military muscle to Lego, in exchange for them proping us up tach wise

this of course will hopefully change at some point, but is good for now

Jon Miller

[HarryH]

Report for 70 AD turn has been posted.

We are currently running +1 gpt so our gold situation looks good. In four more turns the city of Panama Vox will be settled. My plan is to move the scientist to Panama Vox, put the laborer in Resurrection on the gold hill, move the laborer at Memory to the horse hill. By then a mine will be completed and the laborer in Sea Biscuit will have been moved to the mined hill. This should add two commerce to the cities in the east but I expect one may be lost to corruption. We will also get at least one commerce from Panama Vox plus a reduction of 1 unit cost. This should net us at least 3 more gpt.

In ten turns the cities of The New Voice, Hope, and Renewal will have (or will be close to) growing. The workers will have completed all they can do for The New Voice and Irony and be working up north in the Hope and Renewal areas. This will also increase our commerce by 8 which should generate at least 6 gpt.

Looking 15-20 turns ahead Hope will complete its granary, be size 3 on the way to size 4, The New Voice will have its market, and Irony will have grown to size 2. The cities of Sea Biscuit and Phoenix will be ready to grow to size 2 with Sea Biscuit completing its harbor and Phoenix completing its library. After the granary I would like Hope to build a settler for the final city site, the northern desert city.

There are three locations that will benefit or need border expansion before too long. They are Renewal, to get the shielded grassland, Memory, to get to the whale, and Phoenix, which has only one coast tile. We have 258 gold now with +1 gpt and should be up to +10 gpt in ten turns. Subtracting out the 70 gold we owe Lego we still have nearly 190 gold which is more than enough to rush an improvement. Our gpt will handle the maintenance but we will not have much gold left unless we get the gold GoW owes us. If we wait a few turns the rush cost will go down. Waiting plus the gold from GoW may allow us to do two rushes. On the other hand, I would like to rush a library in Memory as soon as possible so it can get to the whale and increase its growth rate.

If you noticed in the turn report I already set Phoenix to build a library. With only one coast tile it seems border expansion will be more important than a harbor. The harbor can be built second.

Since our gold situation looks OK, on the next turn I would like to send Lego the 70 gold we owe them.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by HarryH
Since our gold situation looks OK, on the next turn I would like to send Lego the 70 gold we owe them.

I agree whole-heartedly!

[Rhothaerill]

We should make sure GoW knows not to send the gold they owe us straight to Lego then....assuming they do actually pay us sometime in the near future.

[Beta]

Beauty! I agree Harry. Let's repay Lego. I will tell them it is coming next turn. OK?

[Rhothaerill]

Sounds good to me. They've been more than patient waiting for it. Now that they need it, we have it to give back.

[Beta]

Harry - I presume GoW owes us 115 gold? If so, please confirm and I will pass on the request to GoW, I do believe it is an oversight on their part. Thanks.

[HarryH]

Yes, GoW owes us 115 gold. If you want to tell Lego we will send the gold next turn, OK. I will include a note when I send them the next turn either way.