A New Palace for the New King!

[OliverFA]

Correction. The civilopedia says 100, but the real cost is 300

[Togas]

OliverFA checked with the 670bc save. Building Palace in Pamplona would take 55 turns.

--Togas

[BigFree]

Originally posted by OliverFA
ruby_maser, the palace costs 100 shields. I've just checked with the 670bc save.

The Civlopedia reports that it costs 100 shields; but in game, if you seclect a Palace to build to Pamplona, as of turn 670 BC, the total cost is 300 shields.

There's 26 shileds in the que and the game says it will take 55 turns to build it with the current production of 5 shields per turn. 5x55=275. 275+26=301 Palace done then. Maybe there's something wrong with my version of the game???

[Togas]

All team members

Please meet in #civ3rp chatroom tonight and discuss this very important issue.

--Togas

[OliverFA]

For my version of the game it's also 300 shields. The civilopedia says 100, but when I try to build it at Pamplona I also get the 55 turns label...

[ruby_maser]

That is so ridiculously prohibitive it makes me sick

[BigFree]

I've been trying to figure out why in the heck the Civlopedia says it costs 100 shields, but in game it costs 300. I 've started some new games, on various difficulty levels. Difficulty levels don't have any affect on it's cost. In fact, I started a game as Carthage, which starts with Masonry, the prerequisite for building the Palace. I added the worker back into the city, so that I could produce a settler as soon as possible, well I got a second city built by 3550 BC. When I looked to see how much it would cost, it was 300 shields!

I looked into some of my older save games and found that the cost of the Palace does range a bit. I've never seen it at under 300 shields. I saw it at 400 and 500 and 600. The differences in these games was the size of my empire at the different times(also map size). The longer I was around and the bigger my Empire was, the more it cost to build a Palace. I couldn't find this mentioned in the editor or in the manual.

Funny thing is, I never found an instance where the Palace would cost 100 shields or even 200 shields!

I need to ask Firaxis about this. The PTW Editor also lists the cost of a Palace at 10 (with the cost factor of 10 always being used for the human player; the AI cost factor varies from 20 at Chieftain (twice the cost for AI) to 6 at Diety (60% cheaper for the AI)). So with a cost of 10 and a cost factor of 10 you get 100, the stated cost of the Palace in the Civlopedia; but not the actual cost in the game!

It doesn't add up. At least the Civlopedia or the Editor should explain the differences in costs.

Edit: gramatical errors

[BigFree]

A chat log of the discussion to move the Palace or not.

Session Start Thu Apr 7 15:33 2003
Session Ident #civ3rp
Now talking in #civ3rp
Topic is 'All Hail Togas '
Set by mrmitchell on Thu Apr 7
OliverFA> Just not counting Madrid it gets better for Zaragoza, Santiago, Vigo and Leon And Worst for Barcelona and Toledo
OliverFA> Hello Bigfree
BigFree> hello
BigFree> I have to go to work in about an hour
Togas> we're discussing the palace jump
OliverFA> I have to go to sleepin about an hour
BigFree> I can't be around tfor the chat until around 9 or 10 PST
BigFree> sleep is impotant too! )
E_T> Remember, Toledo will get better when it get's connected
BigFree> We are discussing th ePalace jump now?
OliverFA> Yes That's right
E_T> it's distance factor will be reduced by 15 % when it get's connected
BigFree> ok, then, Im here )
OliverFA> I disbanded madrid in the 670bc save
E_T> here's my plan, next turn, change from Market to settler (1 turn left)
Togas> I'm mostly listening and asking questions of those of you who know more about this than me
E_T> Then build a worker of settler
BigFree> nope, settler will be done
BigFree> when we get the turn
E_T> at the same time, kill the barracks
Togas> shouldn't be We've only had 2 turns at 10 production
Togas> settler = 30 sheilds
E_T> keep the Temple until the st settler is built
BigFree> I thought he meant at Pamplona, sorry
E_T> This is my plan
mrmitchell sets mode +ov BigFree BigFree
mrmitchell> ;p
E_T> 2 settlers and a worker are built (maybe 3 settlers
BigFree> We could easily push it to three
E_T> first settler stays
E_T> worker is next
E_T> worker works
Togas> first settler just hangs out?
BigFree> Why would first stay
mrmitchell> hanging out b
Togas> can't we have last settler stay?
mrmitchell> but why would first stay
OliverFA> to rebuild Madrid just after razing it I suppose
mrmitchell> or last stay p
BigFree> yes, tats better
E_T> then last settler is used to abandon city
E_T> as soon as the city is abandoned, the palace moves
BigFree> First settler should build at 9-9-9 from Madrid, no?
Togas> b
OliverFA> 999?
BigFree> second and third settler stays
E_T> your rebuild Madrid and add the other settler for size 3
Togas> NE, NE, NE
BigFree> 999 is keypad directions
OliverFA> ok, thanks Togas )
E_T> then you have a jump on rebuilding thingds
OliverFA> 999 seems too near for me (
BigFree> not if were moving the palace, it's perferct
BigFree> it has access to cattle in Madrid
OliverFA> do you want to rebuild Madrid at a different place?
E_T> no
Togas> same spot
E_T> so that's why you have that settler hang out
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dejon> Señor Dejon reporting as ordered, my Liege
E_T> so you are back to a semi decent pop
Togas> can't we pump out 3 settlers, send to build new city, leave last 2 to rebuild madrid?
OliverFA> in that case why another city just 3 tiles NE from Madrid?
BigFree> right, Togas
BigFree> I don't get what E_T is saying ???
E_T> that might take longer, the main thing is to switch production next turn
Togas> I put that city there on my "future plan" for Spain
BigFree> OliveFA because Toledo is already in that dorection
E_T> BF, if you add a settler to an alrey established city, what happens?
BigFree> you get 3
E_T> righ
dejon> Sorry for coming in mid-conversation here, but I'd really love to get a quick summary of your thoughts on the topic, E_T
E_T> right
E_T sets mode +o dejon
E_T> It's a good plan, it just will require rebuilding things
Togas> My two questions ) Can we do settler, settler, settler DISBAND, or will it be settler, worker, settler?
BigFree> What I don't understand is that if we build 3 settlers at Madrid why make the first 'hangout' and then send the second out to settle and then build with the third (Madrid) and then add the first
Togas> 2) How many turns will this take?
E_T> the bad part of it is we will drop in points for a while
OliverFA> and in culture
E_T> depends, I can't say without using my spreadsheet of doing a simulation
dejon> The drop in score is double-edged - it could make us a target, or drop us "below the radar" for awhile (a good thing)
OliverFA> people would now that Madrid is rebuilt They will tell by the change in borders
Togas> I'm OK with dropping …we've set up several high growth cities that will pay off later
E_T> they will see that as soon as they get their save
E_T> the cultureal loss will be greater
dejon> Of course they would, they would see the capital icon move And I imagine we'd call it "New Madrid" or something
BigFree> I had figured on 7 turns for building two settlers
OliverFA> if we move, that's ok to continue calling it Pamplona
Togas> Pamplona will be the new Capital however old madrid will be called New Madrid
dejon> Another positive - our capital would no longer be a border city, exposed to attack
E_T> both the temple and the Palace are duoble culture for being over 1000 years old
Togas> Pamplona really is the heart and soul of our kingdom
E_T> speaking form that next turn that is coming, the first settler will be built in turn
dejon> How dramatic a change will this make to Pamp's settler production? (I'd love to hear that we could squeeze a few workers in the Q)
E_T> We might get a 2nd settler instead of a worker, can't tell
Togas> ET -- run the simulation if you can
OliverFA> if that plan goes further Zaragoza should build something different than a settler
E_T> but as soon as that first settler is built, we can get rid of the temple
dejon> OliverFA - agreed Z should be producing settlers only if absolutely necessary, and preferably workers when pop demands it
Togas> Zaragoza is building settler to deal with population growth It needs to be smaller than Pamplona
OliverFA> and what will Pamplona build then?
Togas> Temple?
dejon> Has one, doesn't it?
Togas> nope
E_T> Timeline Next turn (6 0BC), change production, sell Barracks (+ GPT); turn after (630BC) first settler is built, change to worker, sell Temple (size 3 -> + GPT);
dejon shakes off more rust from prolonged absence
dejon> okay then, temple
Togas> damn Gotta go
OliverFA> have a nice time
Togas> Please post the timeline and conclusions of this discussion
dejon> cya later, liege
Togas> I will be back later tonight
Togas> Whatever the group decides on this is fine with me
Togas> talk soon
OliverFA> the group?
Togas> the group assembled here )
dejon> Has roadcage chimed in on this idea at any point?
Togas> haven't heard from RC yet, unfortunately
OliverFA> no rc hasn't said anything
Togas> bbl tonight
Togas has quit IRC (Quit )
E_T> About 3 turns after, Worker is built (size 2), change to settler; About 6 to 0 turns after, settler is built, Madrid is abandond, palace moves and we build Tel Madrid
E_T> I would say that it will be a minimum of 0 to 4 turns to complete, unless we rush things a bit
dejon> anyway we could speed the 6- 0 turns for second settler? chop forest?
E_T> might be sooner, but that's a rough estimate
E_T> no, use the chop for things that have to be rebuilt
dejon> What changes HAVE to be made in the next 2 turns if we do this?
E_T> Next turn (6 0BC), change production, sell Barracks (+ GPT);
BigFree> I can get 2 settlers built in madrid in 7 turns or 3 built in 2; shifting the wheat tile to Madrid for a couple of the turns
E_T> Imperitave that the change get made, so we don't lose any sheilds
E_T> 3 might be better, but we also need workers
dejon> any changes elsewhere? Pamp? Zara?
E_T> How about 2 settlers and 2 workers?
dejon> Yes - workers please! We need to build roads to our future southern cities quickly if they are to be defended properly
BigFree> Didn't try that, but maybe 0 would be a miracle! )
E_T> rush on 2 turns left to build
BigFree> right, we could pay a bit for it
BigFree> go settler, worker, worker, settler
E_T> BF, have you ever heard of my concept of Throughput rushes?
BigFree> nope, sorry
E_T> let's say you have 10 cities
E_T> most likely, they are all building different things
E_T> with different production rates
E_T> when you get to 2 turns left to build something, you rush that item (unless you have very good porduction and the item is a bank or Uni or greater)
E_T> with all of the cities doing this, your are increasing your production throughput at a sustantial reduction in overall rush costs
E_T> lets say that over 2 turns, all of those cities will build 2 to 3 things
E_T> with the throughput rush, you have increased them to 3 to 4 things
E_T> over that same time period, see??
BigFree> That sounds reasonable. I wish you could rush like you can in SMAC, just enough gold so that the prodution you have for the next turn finnishes the project
dejon> I haven't heard of that "concept", but I usually do much the same in my games, rushing things 4 turns or less away that don't break the bank
E_T> this is a simplified example, but this should get you the idea
BigFree> right
E_T> Dejon, I first Introduced it in the SPDG
E_T> when I was CP/DM
E_T> I just didn't have the money to really do it too much, because I was rushing 200 Lyton Courthouses, bacause of our Rampiant Corruption
dejon> OT How 'bout that lousy luck start in the ISDG?
BigFree> 200 courthaouse or the cost was 200???
dejon> 200 gold
dejon> lyton = gold
E_T> seamed like 200, but there were about 20 that I really had to get done
BigFree> ah
E_T> The Nation of Apolyton was really a mess, when I had taken over as CP
dejon> yes, you straightened out lots
dejon> and were an almost impossible act to follow
E_T> but in 2 terms, I reduced the corruption, built the FP, connected our cities via Railroad and had a good start on some factories
E_T> and I mostly did it all myself
mrmitchell> /brag
mrmitchell> p
dejon> lol, mitch
E_T> hey, I'm proud of that accomplishment
dejon> E_T did a ton of work for the SPDG, and not everyone fully appreciated much he put in - he's allowed to brag
E_T> and now it seams a Hawk Pary member is going to be DM for the first term
dejon> how much
E_T> D
dejon> bah, first term DM has one city and one worker
E_T> I shouldn't have run, it's mostly split the votes from GK
E_T> but it's very imprtant to set the tone of the game
dejon> I'm fairly confident that the organizational measures brought in during the first game will carry-over
E_T> the thing that I still laugh at, is some of the accuations that I was trying to take over the game
mrmitchell> city, worker in early game = 0 cities, 00 workers in late-game, IMO
dejon> Anyway, back to the PtWDG - I take it that you two (E_T and BigFree) are testing simulations of the idea?
E_T> Togas asked me about the idea to move the capitol to Pamplona, via abandoning Madrid
mrmitchell> but Madrid has such history!
E_T> yes, I know
mrmitchell> heathen!
mrmitchell sets up a Stake on which to burn heathens
E_T> both the temple and the palace are anchent
E_T> i e over 000 years old
mrmitchell> don't make me burn you on this (/me points to stake)
dejon> Have you read the forums threads on the topic?
E_T> it's a good plan, especialy with out territory being so streached out
mrmitchell> no p
dejon> I mentioned that I'm pretty sure this game won't be decided by culture, so losing that production (temporarily) shouldn't be a big deal
mrmitchell> but it's got RPical history up the ass!
dejon> RP is great, but not if you lose because you don't take advantage of opportunities P
E_T> Madrid will be rebuilt the same turn that it's abandonded, just without a palace
E_T is now known as E_T_eating_dinner
dejon> Not to mention, the whole process will create an AWESOME roleplay opportunity
dejon> yeah, my dinner's almost on the table too
dejon> I'll try to check back later
dejon> later
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E_T_eating_dinner> And do we rename the new city as Madrid or even Tel Madrid??
OliverFA> have to go good bye
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E_T is now known as E_T_playing_PBEM
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E_T_playing_PBEM sets mode +o GeneralTacticus
E_T_playing_PBEM> hey GT
E_T_playing_PBEM> Hey GT, you should have Game #2 save
GeneralTacticus> Got it
E_T_playing_PBEM> good, playit D
GeneralTacticus> I will once I finish with the forums
E_T_playing_PBEM> I'm in a fairly good mood tonight, I have a 3 day weekend
E_T_playing_PBEM> Game's & 3 are both in 3000BC
E_T_playing_PBEM> Are you ready for the next 000 years mahahahaha
E_T_playing_PBEM> D
GeneralTacticus> Yep
GeneralTacticus> 'Specially in game #3 evil
E_T_playing_PBEM> I just updated some things in Game #3 (i e tweeked my plan a bit,,,)
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ruby_maser> hello everyone
GeneralTacticus> ey ruby_maser
GeneralTacticus> Any idea when we're meeting to discuss the matter of the Palace jump?
ruby_maser> I voted for you for Pope, GT sorry for the loss
GeneralTacticus> Heh I'm planning on having the family take a different direction in future
GeneralTacticus> Thanks for the vote, btw
ruby_maser> np I'm not sure when it was scheduled to be
ruby_maser> maybe it already happened confused ?
GeneralTacticus> Possibly
GeneralTacticus sets mode +o ruby_maser
ruby_maser> Togas is on the west coast though online 8 30 there isn't it?
GeneralTacticus> No idea
GeneralTacticus> He was last online a few hours ago
ruby_maser> you're half way around the world and you can't keep up with our time zones p
ruby_maser> anyway, I wouldn't know how anything could get solved turns to build the palace in pamplona is just ridiculous
GeneralTacticus> Indeed We need a GL
ruby_maser> what we need is for Firaxis to have some sense They could make the Palace jump a one time deal with a cheaper rate
ruby_maser> I imagine they made it expensive to keep people from doing it too much
ruby_maser> make it a one time thing
GeneralTacticus> If they made it a one time thing, it would become like the FP
GeneralTacticus> I rarely build that early on, because once it's there, you can't move it
ruby_maser> I don't either, but we aren't playing against the AI humans can exploit having a central government much better
ruby_maser> this is hardly fair in MP
ruby_maser> what time is it in New Zealand?
ruby_maser> test
GeneralTacticus> Eh?
GeneralTacticus> Why do you want to knwo the time in NZ?
GeneralTacticus> know
ruby_maser> sorry, I'm in two places at once just curious really
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GeneralTacticus sets mode +o Togas
GeneralTacticus> rm I have no idea, probably around half past four int eh afternoon
GeneralTacticus> in the
GeneralTacticus> I live in Australia, remember
Togas> What was the result of the "Palace Jump" discussion earlier tonight?
GeneralTacticus> Dunno, I wasn't there if there was one
Togas> RM -- were you here?
GeneralTacticus> Yes, he was
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mr_AFK|RF> hey sup
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Togas> not much
mrmitchell> g2g cya lator
mrmitchell> )
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ruby_maser> anyone still here?
Togas> yes
Togas> how did the Palace jump discussion turn out?
ruby_maser> sorry, I've been out playing chess this whole time p
ruby_maser> it didn't as far as I know Tacticus was here before I was
Togas> what do you think?
ruby_maser> corruption has got us by the balls Bigfree may be right
ruby_maser> it still is unbelievable to me that Firaxis would make the palace 300 shields
ruby_maser> what if we planted another city right beside Madrid? would that allow us to keep our cultural borders after abandoning Madrid?
Togas> it would to some extent
Togas> would only keep THAT city's borders, though
ruby_maser> and just the 8 tiles around it, I guess (
Togas> do you think we should do it?
Togas> I need to know This decision needs to be made before the next turn
Togas> we're going to throw away all that culture
Togas> and trade it in for improved corruption
ruby_maser> no one has asked you yet D what do you think?
Togas> I'm willing to do it if the experts on the team think it's best
Togas> From what I've seen, I'm starting to believe it's the best thing to do, long term
ruby_maser> short term it will be bumpy though
Togas> oh yeah
Togas> very much so
Togas> the whole east of the kingdom disconnected culturally
Togas> and the loss of our best production city
ruby_maser> it would be replaced immediately With the wheat bonus and cow bonus, it could rebound fairly quickly
Togas> loss of our best production city, short term
Togas> it'll return, of course
Togas> and the kingdom's foundation will be centralized
ruby_maser> the temple and the barracks will only get us 2 gold when sold
Togas> wasted
Togas> anyhow, I need to get to sleep
ruby_maser> okay, I hope a solution presents itself though
Togas> Drop in here tomorrow, I'm sure there will be more discussion then
ruby_maser> okay, have you seen ET lately?
Togas> not since 8pm EST
Togas> later!
ruby_maser> goodnight
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Bigfree\AtWork is now known as BigFree
Session Close Fri Apr 18 2003

[Togas]

Proposed plan to Change our Capital City:

Madrid undergoes a horrible plague! LzPrst being the first to undergo the symptoms at La Academia in Madrid, but many people in Madrid are becoming sick. Panic insues, as many people flee Spain for other locales including the King and most of the Court. Important buildings in the city are closed and quarentined to stop the spread (temple, barracks)

In the end, the military has to burn down infected parts of the town to prevent the spread.

The city is rebuilt by the remaining people and people sent from the new capital, Pamplona, as the King wants to see Madrid rebuilt and restored.

650bc Construction in Madrid changed to Settler. Barracks sold.
Pamplona's Settler goes to Ivory City site. Starts on another Settler.

630 Settler built and heads out towards hilly site just south of North Valley with spear escourt from Madrid. (instead of site that is NE, NE, NE of Madrid). Start on Worker.

590 Worker built, begin working near Madrid on mines & roads. Start on Settler in Madrid.

570 Zaragoza's settler goes to either Floodplan City south of Pamplona, or city site that is between elephants and wheat. Zaragoza goes back to mil production.

Madrid tries to keep food surplus down. If it grows too fast, add another worker into queue before Settler. Madrid must have 0 surplus food and size two when settler built, so may need additional worker.

Pamplona's next settler goes to Madrid to help boost the population after rebuild. Pamplona then starts on Temple or another Settler if Madrid is taking too long to disband.

... please feel free to add more detail to this plan after it has been simulated and run through the proper spreadsheets.

--Togas

[E_T]

Detailed Plan for Madrid

The Eta Tamali Family has worked closely with the King and has presented a plan for the eradication of this terrible Disease and help to preserve as much of Madrid's Population for better times.

The Plan

Turn 95 (650BC - just played) Madrid at size 3, Food Box at 4, 2 food surplus, 20 sheilds for build, 10 SPT
Change build to Settler, No WF changes. Sell Barracks (+1 GPT).

Turn 96 (630BC) First Settler built, head to new city site somewhere. Size 3 - set to build a worker. WF to 5-14-18, 5 SPT and 3 food surplus, 6 food in food box.
Worker will be built in 2 turns, No WF changes during build.
At this time, we sell off the Temple, as we won't need it for any happiness (+1 GPT)

Turn 98 (590BC) First Worker built, set build to worker. Size 2 - WF to 4-5, 5 SPT and 2 surplus food, 12 food in food box.
Worker will be built in 2 turns, No WF changes during build.

Turn 100 (550BC) Second worker built, set build to Settler. Size 1 - WF to 5, 3 SPT and 3 surplus food, 16 food in food box.
Settler will be built in 7 turns total, No WF changes until the city Grows in 2 turns

Turn 102 (510BC) City Grows to size 2 - WF to 4-5, 5 SPT and 2 food surplus, 0 food in food box. No WF changes until turn 106.

Turn 106 (430BC) Set WF to 4-9, this keeps the sheild output at 5 SPT but reduces the food surplus to 0.

Turn 107 (410BC) Domestic Nag askes about Abandoning Madrid, we say yes and the Palace moves. We then rebuild Madrid and set it build a Temple. We then add a settler to the city to bring it back up to size 3.

We could also rush this by 1 turn for 28 gold on turn 105, we just set the WF to 8 and a specialist, likely a taxman, to get the most trade.

On another Issue, when Madrid is rebuilt, we should have some additional Infrastructure available for the production of things. With the 2 additional worker, we should start to mine the hills that are around Madrid, starting with #8 (already roaded) and then work on mining and roading #6 and #13, as these are next to the River and get the trade bonus, and we can also Irrigate and Road #7. This will take 2 workers a total of 31 turns to complete, but we will have a city that has a great production capacity for building any Wonders that we would like.

E_T

[E_T]

Another thing that we should do, is make an embassy with one of the Civs that we currently don't have one with, before we do the move. THis will show them our current capitol of Madrid, and not our New Capitol of Pamplona. This is of course up to our King and his Foreign Advisors.

E_T

[E_T]

I just reran the numbers and If the 2 workers that Madrid builds are used to mine tile #8, then the Palace will move 1 turn earlier without having to rush.

[EDIT]
Original Plan

Turn 106 (430BC) Set WF to 4-9, this keeps the sheild output at 5 SPT but reduces the food surplus to 0.

Turn 107 (410BC) Domestic Nag askes about Abandoning Madrid, we say yes and the Palace moves. We then rebuild Madrid and set it build a Temple. We then add a settler to the city to bring it back up to size 3.

New Plan with the 2 workers mining #8

Turn 104 (470BC) Change WF to 5-8, the mine will be completed when the turn is ended and the extra sheilds will be added to the build. 12 sheilds left, 6 added after mine is built.

Turn 105 (450BC) Change WF to 4-8 for 0 food surplus and 6 sheilds to complete Settler.

Turn 106 (430BC) Domestic Nag askes about Abandoning Madrid, we say yes and the Palace moves. We then rebuild Madrid and set it build a Temple. We then add a settler to the city to bring it back up to size 3.
[/EDIT]

E_T