A New Palace for the New King!

[Hot Mustard]

I must say that BigFree is doing a marvelous job of making his point. While I was initially shocked at the idea, I find myself starting to warm up to it.

If we did this, the planning would have to be meticulous - ensuring that Pamplona would get the capital, minimizing Madrid's size, planning for the increased production amongst the remaining cities, etc.

[BigFree]

I should point out that if we do the "jump", the settler being produced in Pamplona needs to be changed to something else (this turn). We need to keep it's population up. I'd suggest a Market Place followed by the Sistine Chappel (as per OliverFa's suggestion.)

Thanks for the comments Dejon.

[OliverFA]

It's good that Cardinal Tacticus understand people even when we don't explain ourselves very well. Thanks for explaining

[Aidun]

[ooc]
I do not really oppose Bigfree's plan, but still I prefer letting Pamplona build a palace instead of jumping it over from Madrid just when we need it to build wonders like the sistine chapel, which could give us a GA.

I concur that Madrid is not the most ideally placed capital.

Before we will decide to abandon Madrid, we have to count out:
- How much production we loose for how much time?
- If we can afford this when we want to build the sistine chapel;
- If we can afford this if we will be attacked by ND or get into war with ND;
- Any other option that I can't think of now.

As for the roleplay: the tomb of King Augusto Togas is outside of the city, like all other barrows, is outside of the city I believe, so it is no problem to abandon Madrid, it won't harm the graves of our ancestors.

The estates and tavern are a problem, like the problem that kings are usually not likely to set fire to their own palaces even if they are assured of getting a new one that is even more beautiful that the old one.

The point of Monarchy: Civilization does not have the government type of constitutional monarchy, probably because this government type has such big differences over the time.

Let's take an example from my own country:
In 1848 the first constitution was written and approved by King William II, but the it did not limit his power much. The Netherlands were clearly NOT a democracy in those days, although there was a parliament.
Nowadays my country is still a kingdom: a constitutional monarchy, but also a democracy.

This example illustrates how complex a constitutional monarchy is.

We should discuss if we want to stick to monarchy (more like absolute monarchy, with limited civil freedoms)
or switch to another government type as soon as we think w have reached a 'new level of development' in constitutional monarchy, but still name our head of state King and maintaining political political power for the King.

[/ooc]

Duke Aidun Cian the younger

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by BigFree
I should point out that if we do the "jump", the settler being produced in Pamplona needs to be changed to something else (this turn). We need to keep it's population up. I'd suggest a Market Place followed by the Sistine Chappel (as per OliverFa's suggestion.)

I will need to know what the final decision is on the matter. Personally, I am all for the palace jump, but I believe we could still afford to have Pamplona produce this Settler. The city grows every three turns. It'll be right back at size 6 in 6 turns; I am not aware that any potential time table for abandoning Madrid would happen more quickly than this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Right now, my orders for the city are to stay on queue until we reach some kind of a consensus. We may need to delay sending the save on to get this thing hammered out.

[BigFree]

ruby_maser, to cpmpletely and unequivically ensure that the Palace "jumps" to Pamplona, I would like Pamplona to be a size 7. I would also like to have Barcelona reduse it's population; perhaps building the settler there would be acceptable? Perhaps even rushing the settler in Barcelona?

The tests I ran had Pamplona at size 7 and Barcelona at 5 when the Palace "jumped." Decreasing Barcelona's size is just an all assuring insurance policy.

[Hot Mustard]

Might it be feasible to produce a couple of workers elsewhere, that could immediately join New Madrid, speeding its recovery?

[ruby_maser]

What if we just built the d@nm thing?

Well, I ran the numbers to see how fast Pamplona could actually produce a Palace since the majority is against a "palace jump".

If I were able to enlist Leon's new worker and use it to build a mine at #19 next turn and if Pamplona were allowed to keep a garrison of 2 (possibly 3 if I'm incorrect about it) to help quell unrest, the city should be able to build a new palace for our king by 370 BC (14 turns from 650 BC) if corruption factors did not change significantly in that time. Otherwise, I think we could still safely set 350 BC for the completion date.

Please forgive me if I don't post the analysis tonight; it's late here. I may do so tomorrow.

The empire would lose the potential for roughly 3 settlers to come from Pamplona in that time. I would hope other cities would step up and meet or beat that number (maybe Madrid could assist in that capacity out of appreciation for not being burnt to the ground ).

Please post your thoughts about this soon. We will need to move on this idea quickly because it needs to go into effect next turn.

[OliverFA]

I suport RubyMaser's constructive point of view.

Let´s start packing our belongings and moving to Pamplona, but don't raze Madrid.

[BigFree]

It's a valid option

I included building the Palace in Pamplona in my scenario for moving the Palace, it is not wholly without merit. Consider this:

It would take Madrid 16 turns after being abandoned to regain is current stature, though it would never regain it's culture producing ability to the degree that it has would it not have been abandoned. In those 16 turns ~80 shields would've been used to rebuild the Barracks and the Temple. If you don't abandon Madrid and you measure the output of Madrid over the period of the next 16 turns, it will produce ~180 shields.

So if we switch production in Pamplona to a Palace, which has a cost of 300 shields, we are only really losing 120 (300-180) shields to it's production compared to "jumping" the Palace there. Plus we don't lose any of the commerce that Madrid is producing during those 16 turns if we were to "jump" the Palace. I figure that Madrid would normal provide ~202 commerce during those 16 turns (of not being abandoned) but would only produce ~96 in it's regrowth period.

So, if we were to build the Palace in Pamplona instead of "jumping" it, we'd lose ~120 shields of production but we'd gain ~106 (202-96) commerce and keep the high culture generating Temple in Madrid.

The other downside is that it is going to take a while to build. Especially if it just built a settler there this turn. I had originally stated that it would take ~36 turns, but that was considering the shields in the build que at that time and that it was still at size 5. If we want to build it faster, we'd have to put our workers to work there almost exclusively. "Chops" won't add shields to a Palace build (nor a FP or a Wonder.) We'd want to mine the gold mountain and the mountain with the river running through it as well as the bonus grasslands that the laborers can reach (2 of them.) Another mountain should then be mined with each of the mined tiled to then be roaded, the ones on a river tile to be first. We might even consider adding back to Pamplona's population the settler we just built!?

Since the cities to the far East of our Empire are the ones with the most corruption; we can build worker's in those cities and bring them to Pamplona to be added to the population, increasing the production and thus the speed at which the Palace would be created.

I can go with either plan.....the "jump" is just a marginally a better choice IMO.

[Nuclear Winter]

I sugest we merge the WLTKD plan and this one.... all the while Madrid builds Sistine Chapel

[Aidun]

I fully agree with this plan.

Duke Aidun Cian the younger

[History Guy]

I agree also. As for the Sistine, it must be built!

Cardinal Calamari
Duke of Vigo, Baron of Squid

[ruby_maser]

Someone help me out here...

I thought building a Palace costs 100 shields I even looked it up and found info to that effect at CivFanatics.

If it costs more (as BigFree has stated), we are looking at alot longer time to actually build it.

[OliverFA]

ruby_maser, the palace costs 100 shields. I've just checked with the 670bc save.