WAR Between Lux and ND!!!

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Arnelos


Why on earth he doesn't seem to fully recognize that it's well past time for him to ask ND for their terms is beyond me... he's a complete fool for making THREATS at ND rather than capitulating right now

does it REALLY suprise you that Trip beat his chest and tried to scare ND away when he had a pair of 3's, and ND had a full house?

We need Lux alive tho, to serve as long term distraction. even if vasalised, thats better than gone.

I suggest we work with GoW to threaten ND to step down, perhaps after 1 or 2 cities.

We can't mount an immediate attack, but suggest there will be long term reprocussions

[Ninot]

honestly, if I were Trip, I think I might have done the same thing

from a strategic point of view.....

if he gave ND pleas for peace, they would gain the immediate impression that he is defenseless.

if ND believed he could kick them down, his plan would have worked.

i think the second one had a better chance of giving him life. Too bad it didnt.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Arnelos


If this situation gets worse, I can change the queue in Madrid for after the barracks from settler to archers (and lots of them). Veteran Archer stacks are all that we can do until Madrid is connected to horses or roads.

Indeed governor... It's will be a continuous weighing of the situation for Madrids production. You might be able to build the settler so we can expand, if we are left in peace that is...
Building the barracks there first, and so prepare us for the worst, and is IMO the right thing to do in this situation.

[Nuclear Winter]

This pretty much proves that GoW has a deal to split Lux lands with ND.

[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Let's coninue
[Donegeal> so you want to try to stop war?
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> if ND attacks Lux and do nothing, ND will become a superpower
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> that is the least we both want
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> RP and GoW
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> You understand that?
[Donegeal> or... ND can attack Lux and draw their forces to the other side of the continete and we kill them together
[NuclearisWinterius> But we would like to know the position of your team before we enter the war
[Donegeal> in any case... GoW is all about the money....
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Of course, Trip has to pay for it
[NuclearisWinterius> For now, who has paid you mercenaries the best offer
[NuclearisWinterius> ?
[Donegeal> I don't know... seems you want to look out for Trips interests...
[Donegeal> Sorry Nuc... we can't give out that kind of info
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Donegeal, You know that Trip can never win from ND
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> So ND will win
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> The'll becoem too strong
[Donegeal> looks that way... but Trip and GoW could...
[NuclearisWinterius> We don´t trust ND enough to allow them to win the war
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> That is what I meant to say
[Donegeal> SO are you saying that you are going to intervene on Lux behalf?
[NuclearisWinterius> PRobably, but we are not sure yet
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> If GoW is going to war AGAINST ND yes
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Very probably
[Donegeal> hmmm... I like the sound of that...
[NuclearisWinterius> In fact we would like to intervene diplomatically
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> First diplomatically
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Then war
[Donegeal> I was always against ND joining this game as they are not 'poly...
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> if it doesnt work
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Donegeal, RP wants you to do something for us
[Donegeal> I have been trying to get my team to take any offer Trip gives us....
* Disconnected
Session Close: Thu Feb 13 13:43:07 2003

Session Start: Thu Feb 13 13:43:53 2003
Session Ident: #donegeal
* Now talking in #donegeal
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> back
[Donegeal> Actually... I don't have alot of time right now...
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> sorry got disconnected
[NuclearisWinterius> But does your team sees the point in not letting ND get way too strong in the north?
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> we can keep it real short
[Donegeal> I am almost done with work then I have to drive about 35 min back home... I can be back by about 7:40 CST
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Very well
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> We'll be waiting for you
[Donegeal> see you then?
[NuclearisWinterius> See ya Mr Doengeal!
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> cya
[Donegeal> same bat channel?
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> same channel
[Donegeal> later...
* Donegeal has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
cya
* NuclearisWinterius has left #donegeal
* Disconnected
Session Close: Thu Feb 13 13:58:03 2003

Session Start: Thu Feb 13 14:16:27 2003
Session Ident: #donegeal
* Now talking in #donegeal
* Panzer32 has joined #donegeal
[Panzer32> yes?
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Hi
[Panzer32> hi
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Donegeal and I have been discussing the war between ND and Lux
[Panzer32> which team are you?
[Panzer32> Roleplay, right?
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Yes right
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> You know about the war
[Panzer32> yes
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> ND shall attack Lux NEXT turn
[Panzer32> you have a nonagression pact with ND
[Panzer32> I know that
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> yes we have
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> There is but a problem
[Panzer32> ?
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> RP doesn't want ND to get into war with Lux, I'll present you the reason
* NuclearisWinterius has joined #Donegeal
[NuclearisWinterius> Hi mrs
[Panzer32> hello
[NuclearisWinterius> Hello mr Panzer
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> If ND conquers Lux now, they'll become a superpower and a threat to both of us
[NuclearisWinterius> how are you doing?
[Panzer32> good
[NuclearisWinterius> MR panzer, we from the Kingdom of Spain Would like to know what is your team´s official policy for a war between Nd and lux,
[NuclearisWinterius> so that we can define a policy for our team.
* Donegeal has joined #donegeal
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Hi donegeal
[NuclearisWinterius> Will you aid lux or ND, or will gow be neutral?
[Donegeal> Hello... told you I would be back...
[NuclearisWinterius> hello mr donegeal
[Panzer32> I am not at liberty to say.
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Panzer, this is uregent
[Panzer32> just guess and hope you're right.
[Panzer32> its all I can prescribe...
[NuclearisWinterius> We need to know this as to be in a position to aid GoW and improve our diplomatic relationship
[NuclearisWinterius> Sun Tze said ´´You don´t lie or deny information for an ally´´
[Donegeal> Did you give us writting yet? I'm sure that would improve relations..
[NuclearisWinterius> I´m sorry to say I don´t know...
[Panzer32> I think they did.
[NuclearisWinterius> I´m not from the tech department
[NuclearisWinterius> though we are doing all in our hands to improove our relationships.
[Panzer32> they should have, since our warriors are north of Saragossa
[NuclearisWinterius> We trust your warriors
[Donegeal> Look... were mercs... we benifit from war. Who ever gives us the best offer will get our help..
[Donegeal> maybe you and Lux could put together an offer...
[NuclearisWinterius> I guess mercenaries also have allies...
[Panzer32> GoW and Roleplay are at peace, we do not have an alliance.
[NuclearisWinterius> Well, ain´t peace a sort of Alliance of friendship?
[Panzer32> sure... but we have no guarantees about what you will do with any information we give you.
[NuclearisWinterius> We have no interest In ´´saving´´ Lux, we were just trying to see a common view of the situation so that we can find a position that fits both of our teams in the best manner
[Donegeal> you are worried about balance...hire us.
[Panzer32> are you prepared to strike within 5 turns?
[NuclearisWinterius> Mr panzer, we could never do somethingthat would in any manner hurt Glory of War. Spain is a peace loving nation
[Donegeal> what is the latest save year?
[NuclearisWinterius> We are not sure if we will strike, but our regiments are ready to move
[NuclearisWinterius> I don´t quite remember
[Panzer32> Then just move towards Lux-ND boarder, and then make up your minds
[Panzer32> 1725 I believe
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Then it'll be too late
[NuclearisWinterius> We are not sure if we will act,
[Panzer32> too late because the war will be over, or for some other reason?
[NuclearisWinterius> Because we are not yet sure if we want to intervene
[NuclearisWinterius> If glory of war gave us a position we would surely be on your side of the interests
[Panzer32> I can tell you, that Lux by themselves is in a very bad position.
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> too late because the war shall have started alreay
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> *already
[NuclearisWinterius> We are not sure if we WANT to aid lux Invicta´s team
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> And do not want to save them
[Panzer32> so you just want to be on the winning side, without really helping.
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> No
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> You are distrusting us
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> it seems
[Panzer32> I am just commenting on what I see.
[NuclearisWinterius> We don´t really have any bonds with Lux Invicta
[NuclearisWinterius> or Neu Demo
[Panzer32> you have a NAP with ND!
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> We want to prevent ND of getting too mighty
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> that is also in your interest
[NuclearisWinterius> We have a pact that states we won´t attack ´em for teritory purposes
[Panzer32> I just don't see why Roleplay doesn't stay out of the war, and build up during it. If I were RP, thats what I would do.
[NuclearisWinterius> The team that we have more bonds with right now is Glory of War, so we would like to know the position China will take so we can consider what will we do, but as GoW seems not to trust us enough to share a information with us...
[Donegeal> So what do you want us to do? Tell you who's side we are on?
[NuclearisWinterius> Indeed. We are bound to aid, or at the worst of possibilities stay out of it
[Donegeal> Easy... the higest bidder.
[NuclearisWinterius> We will not backstab GoW. And that is for sure
[Donegeal> We, unfortunately are not permitted to say who the higest bidder is. We said so when we first became mercs..
[NuclearisWinterius> That is ok.
[Panzer32> now, if we told you what side we are on (if we are on a side yet), you will post it in your forum, right?
[NuclearisWinterius> no,
[NuclearisWinterius> we would only tell Lord Togas
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> We are Togas' diplomats
[NuclearisWinterius> Ah, by the way, we are happy to say that Mr Betahound from Vox controlli has just sent us the contacts of Gathering Storm, as pper the agreemnet with glory of war
[Panzer32> would Togas tell anyone?
[NuclearisWinterius> Probably not. He would just take his decision and and tell the team what shall we do, as in, call back our boys, or go get ´em.
[NuclearisWinterius> The ways of despotism
[Panzer32> probably...
[NuclearisWinterius> Surely not. If told anyone, it would be senor dejon, his most trusted advisor
[Panzer32> the problem with this is that we cannot let it leak to ANYONE.
[NuclearisWinterius> Well then
[Panzer32> It would surely get back to ND/Lux
[NuclearisWinterius> We would not tell ém
[NuclearisWinterius> it is our most high principle
[NuclearisWinterius> But if you just cannot, It is ok.
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Please trust us Panzer
[NuclearisWinterius> No aidun, that is ok
[NuclearisWinterius> It is on their contract
[NuclearisWinterius> Actually, it is good to see that they follow every line of the contract
[Panzer32> we cannot betray anyone
[Panzer32> your team will find out soon enough, anyway.
[NuclearisWinterius> So I think this talk is over, right?
[NuclearisWinterius> Please convey our thanks to mr Farb
* Donegeal has left #donegeal
[NuclearisWinterius> for teh deal with Gathering storm and tell him everything went ok
[Panzer32> ok.
[NuclearisWinterius> See ya later Senõr panzer
* NuclearisWinterius has left #Donegeal
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> I'll leave too Panzer
[Panzer32> ok - I'm just recording some of the things that were said
[Panzer32> bye
[Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> bye

[Togas]

This information is useful, however, I need to institute a new policy regarding conversations with other teams.

Please read the Official Edicts thread.

--Togas

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by Togas
This information is useful, however, I need to institute a new policy regarding conversations with other teams.

Thank god

[astrologix]

(OOC)

Assuming that we need a stronger army ASAP, I suggest the following steps to do that :

1. Barcelona first builds a worker instead of a spearman
2. The current workers near Madrid and Barcelona finish chopping the forrest and the roads between those two cities and after that, do the same between Madrid and Pamplona. They don't irrigate the plain tiles near Barcelona.
3. The worker near Saragossa build roads to connect Pamplona, Saragossa and Santiago and next build a road to the iron. Finally he found a colony on the iron in order to allow Madrid to build swordmen (this could be done in around 16 turns away).
4. The two warriors on the north patrol near the ND borders. The two others go to Madrid in order to be upgraded to swordmen.
5. After building barrakcs, Madrid builds archers (as suggested by Arnelos) and then swordmen (when the iron become available)
6. Pamplona could continue build a worker (to help building the road to Madrid) and then settlers.
7. Santiago build wall.
8. Barcelona continue to growth with the help of its second worker (who irrigate the plain tiles) and builds a spearman or something else.

Of course, this is only a rough plan. It must be improved. But it's a first thought...

[pikesfan]

I won’t be able to make the chat, so I would appreciate someone recording it and posting it.

I really don’t see what else we can do but sigh and weep into our handkerchiefs at poor Lux’s tragic situation as we don’t have the manpower to go on an offensive. It’s so depressing we don’t have the heart to even get out of bed in the mornings.

In other words, we should send no help but we should build up our own military and hurry to that iron.

[Togas]

Results of a discussion with Neu Dem

I met in private chat with Borc, Darekill, Arne, and several other ND members (who remained silent) to discuss the ensuing war with Lux Invicta, and our problems. The following was explained to them:

-- We have a Defensive alliance that ends in 1 turn. If they attack Lux, we have to help Lux. This alliance supercedes our Non-Agg.
-- We, ultimately, understand why they want to destroy that Lux city. We urge them to limit the war to only that city.
-- We will not re-sign our agreement with Lux if ND is willing to wait until it ends before attacking.
-- We will not make demands or threats or such to them. Our interest is peace and cooperation. We have a good friendship with them now and want to continue that relationship.

After some discussion they explained that their interest is just that city. They do not want "a thousand year war" with Lux. They stated that they respect nations that are honest and trustworthy, and Lux is not honest or trustworthy, and as a result of all of the meddling and probing by Lux troops, they decided to act decisively.

They did not promise they would only take that city, but they seemed to imply this.

They will seriously consider our request to wait ONE TURN and then attack. They will poll it today.

On the settlement issue:

They stated that they just want 1 city on the silks. They want at least 1 city south of their capital. They claim to only have room for 8 cities while we have room for 12. I explained to them the following:

1) We are not making cities to the north, east, OR south of our capital, due to the jungle, desert, and ocean that surrounds Madrid. In the future it is likely that we will move our capital as Madrid is in a horrible spot. Spain, as a nation, exists to the west of Madrid.
2) We are settling west. We ask that they settle east. The area we have shown them has room for FIVE excellent city sites.
3) We want to consolidate our nation into an easily defendible area with natural borders. The jungle is an excellent border.
4) If it's the silk they want, we're willing to make a deal for the silk.
5) Giving up that city would be like Spain giving up Gibraltar to England. Perhaps this wasn't the best example, but it may clarify that we feel that we would be giving up a peace of a continuous land mass.
6) I asked "If you took over all of Lux's land, how many city sites would that give you?" They replied, "Enough, but we don't want to be caught in a thousand year war."
7) When they claimed how crowded it was up there and I replied, "I don't know, I haven't see the map up there" they said they might send us a map and that it would "shock us."

BOTTOM LINE: We will talk again in the future about settlement. The issue is undecided, but we are making our point and they are backing down somewhat. They have not promised that they will not go to war with Lux, but there is a good chance that they will take our concerns to heart and delay 1 turn so that we are not BOUND to defend Lux.

However, we may ultimately choose to help Lux. That remains undetermined. Do not reveal any of these negotiations or issues to anyone else at this time.

--Togas

[Crousto]

That's what we hoped for, they only want the silks... The vague 'west coast request' on their picture was only a bluff. The fact that they're now virtually at war with Lux is helping us : they posted that 'ND-RP love story' thing in the public forum, so they can't be quickly hostile to us even if we build a city on the silks. They'll still consider it as an insult though, and I think that only giving them some silks may calm them down. But they already have 5 swordsmen and we've even not linked up iron or horses, so building up an army should be our first priority now.

[ThePlagueRat]

Yeah, we might have to give them some silks if that stack-o-swordsmen suddenly pops up outside one of our poor defended cities one day.
We need to make sure that won't happen. So that we can get paid for the silks. Hopefully our 'Pueblo Armado' will be up and going in time for that. We need to keep in balance with ND, so they cannot threaten us. We also need allies we can trust...

[jdjdjd]

screw them - they have proven to be untrustworthy and warmongers. We build our cities where we want.

[Crousto]

I'm not telling that we should give them the city spot, I'm telling that we could have to trade them a silk ressource for free to calm them down. Face it, this spot is 2 times closer to their capital than ours. We'll rightfully claim it as we'll win the settling race, but hoping that they'll just accept this without any counterpart is really naïve. If we had a military big enough to stand against ND we could keep everything for us, but right now they have 5 swords and none of our units has more than 1 attack point. So let's keep a rather low profile if needed, until we have a bigger military.

[ThePlagueRat]

You got a point there Crousto. We should step carefully... I don't think they will demand anything from us yet. They have to get done with Trip first anyway.

I was a bit optimistic about that future settlement by the lake North of Madrid as well. That one would require a diplomatic miracle.
Now, as we will close them off the South (promising lands) we can have the good many-cities-advantage down under.

[Togas]

The following PM was sent to Lux Invicta (Trip) and GoW (Ghengis). It was sent to GoW to keep down their suspicions and to continue our current diplomatic gambit of acting "in unison" with them.

I have requested that Neu Dem agree to mediate the war between Neu Dem & Lux Invicta which began officially after Lux killed a Neu Dem scout.

I have agreed to personally mediate between the teams (I have taken a course in Mediation as well as Dispute Resolution in law school), however, I am perfectly agreeable to having another person serve as mediator. I have urged Neu Dem to agree -- this would not be binding, if the two sides cannot agree to a settlement, the war would continue.

If they do agree, I will contact both parties to set up time and place for the mediation.

I want to stress to Lux Invicta that Roleplay is in no position to intervene militarily to stop or delay this war. Lux Invicta needs to be honest with themselves. If you cannot keep Neu Dem from conquering your people, you must decide on what you would be willing to do to live to fight another day. If we do mediate this, I'm not going to tolerate a threat-fest and a bunch of posturing. You must have a plan and a proposal that Neu Dem could not reasonably ignore.

Our current agenda

1) Keep from breaking any treaties. Lux has started this war by killing a ND scout, so we are free to act in any mannor we choose.

2) Either keep Lux alive to put future pressure on ND, or to draw out this war as long as possible so we have time to further settle and catch-up militarily.

3) To become close friends with everyone involved/make no enemies. If it turns out that there are only 3 nations on this continent the next war MUST be between GoW & ND. We will die if we allow them to become closer friends than we are with both of them.

4) To stay close to GoW (faux-partnership) to keep a close eye on what they're up to and to try to sway them to not take advantage of Lux.

added: I should point out, if Lux goes down even though we have done everything to save them, I am willing to go along with Ghengis's "give the spoils to your friends" plan whereby Lux gives GoW & Rp their money, workers, and a city that GoW is lusting over.

5) Lastly, we have analyzed the military #s Lux has given us and come to the conclusion that Lux cannot be saved. It is simply not possible with our current military. As it is not possible, I will not pointlessly throw away our troops or anger ND in a lost cause. We should continue to give Trip moral support and try to help cause peace, but we must back away from any further suggestions that our armies will march on ND. At this point, it's just not a sane option.

--Togas