Discussion on border agreement with ND

[Hot Mustard]

Lord Togas has produced this image for discussion:



The yellow line indicates what we should ask for.
The blue line indicates what we should settle for.

Discuss!

[OliverFA]

This looks reasonable for me.

The jungle will act as a natural border anyway. It will be very costly for either civ to settle cities at the other side of the jungle. So it looks logic to use the natural frontier as a formal one too.

[E_T]

If the lines would indicate the furtherest north that a city center is established, then I'm for it. Can we try to haggle for a middle position, atleast for the cultural boarders?? A middle position would allow us to get a city in around where the Madris Expedition is now.

Eta Tamali

[Togas]

In my mind, I don't think we can control where our cultural boundaries go, my feeling was that we could not settle north of the line, and they could not settle south of the line.

I would like to see where others of you would draw the line(s).

--Togas

[ruby_maser]

I would let them have all the way down to our light blue line. That gives them breathing room to expand into. They may be more apt to actually uphold our claims in the south if we are willing to forgoe a little to our north.

The question remains in the long run: when we run out of expansion room, what then?

...WAR!!!

[roadcage]

Could this be the meaning of my 'dreams' reported in this link?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75690&pagenumber=2

Manuel de Leon

[History Guy]

I'd suggest that this be the prepared plan for the settlement agreement when our Lord Togas meets with this barbarian Sultan with the toothless grin. This gives us more than enough room for early expansion of our glorious empire, and a consolidated empire will allow us more time for infrastructure, and preparation of our magnificent armies...

[DAVOUT]

The central part of the yellow line is not acceptable to them. I would rather draw a line from the blue line north of Zaragossa to the gold mountain.

[Crousto]

I agree with DAVOUT, the initial proposal is a bit excessive, it might irritate them and make the negotiations collapse. I'd lower the eastern part by 1 or 2 tiles. Anyway they'll have to take most of the aqua line as it is, now that Zazagoza has been built.

[ThePlagueRat]

I have suggested before that these negotiations should not be conclusive before we have settled by the area where the lake and the gold is. Here is the reason:

To have one city already in place there, would give us a valid argument to have the blue border extended onto the mountain range, where it will meet theirs.
(they can't demand removal of our city, after it has settled, and we cant do that to them either.)


If we just settle for the initial proposal (drawn above), I think we are being a bit too humble, and we miss some exploits: We don't get the gold-cliffs, a defensive mountainrange, possible trade route to ND, and the extended border.
(as being great advantages in the long run).


So I say, take the land! It's not very far from Madrid either.
Only 3 jungletiles + 1 hill (excl.grassland) needs to be roaded later... no problem, if you ask me.

[OliverFA]

Though the zone with the lake and the gold has very good lands, I feel it can be difficult to defend.

If they (or we) are very concerned about the culture borders, the deal can include a border for the city placement more than an actual land border. We don't put a city north of the blue line and they don't put a city south of the yellow line.

[ThePlagueRat]

Hmm... Señor Oliver, that could be a good deal, but only temporarily. While we are occupied by settling the west and south, we can maintain such a deal.

Later... we can renegotiate and have a settler ready up there.
( if no one else settled the spot meanwhile, such as GoW or Lux)

[LzPrst]

I would again repeat my plea that we colonize north of the jungle by the gold and grain. even if it will be corrupt initially the strategic value IMO counters this.
also it will be hard to defend, but by the time anyone will be thinking seriously of attacking us it should be connected to the empire and be a thriving city.

Give me a few men willing to settle there and I will lead them to greatness when all others claim ruin!

[Togas]

I am reserving that area to "give" to Neu Dem in case we must, but if we get Cow Valley settled at a rapid rate and thereby beat them to the south, we will quickly move to this area as well and try to control it.

And perhaps Senor LzPrst will indeed be given command of a group of settlers and a spear division to establish our first northern city.

--Togas

[astrologix]

Originally posted by oliverfa
Though the zone with the lake and the gold has very good lands, I feel it can be difficult to defend.

But there are hills and mountains at the NW of the lake. With fortified positions, we could defend it.

And think on this : my wife and yours are discussing on how they will be pretty with northern gems well arranged around their necks !