Announcement

**BigFree** · May 20, 2003, 02:54

After learning that GoW had removed their offer for WM I asked MasterZen to tell me what is going on. This chat happened on May 19. The times are PST (GMT-8)

[22:36] BigFree> MZ, we offered our WM to you guys on the last turn becuase in the previous 3 turns you guys have offered your WM to us but never offered it as "accepted" it; So we figured that you guys want our WM in exchange even though we have not discussed it. Now we offer it to you back, then you pull your's off the table. What's going on? Do you want a swap or not?
[22:37] MasterZen> it was not a swap
[22:37] MasterZen> it was to see what you would give for ours
[22:37] BigFree> so our WM is not good enough?
[22:37] MasterZen> our WM is a bit more extensive

[22:38] BigFree> but we are to be allies; what do you want from us?
[22:39] MasterZen> yes but allies doesn't mean we're going to give everything
[22:39] BigFree> so...what do you want?
[22:40] MasterZen> the question is, what would you give?
[22:40] BigFree> How do you know our Map isn't as informative as yours is in other areas?
[22:40] MasterZen> well, unless you have a map of lego
[22:41] BigFree> um, not quite that
[22:41] BigFree> you know lego, how they are with their map...
[22:42] BigFree> What if we offered you tech for it?
[22:43] MasterZen> what tech?
[22:43] BigFree> Monarchy; a cost 24 Tech
[22:45] MasterZen> why would we want monarchy?
[22:45] MasterZen> we're already a republic
[22:45] BigFree> in case you wanted that to support a large army
[22:46] BigFree> then you have the option, that you now don't
[22:46] MasterZen> republic gives us more $$
[22:46] BigFree> that number depends on the amount of unit you have to support
[22:46] BigFree> there's a break even point
[22:47] BigFree> If you ever have more units than you do (Citizens-corruption) then Monarchy is better
[22:48] BigFree> you get one extra commerce for every citizen that produces one
[22:48] BigFree> but then you have to subtract that which is lost due to corrutption
[22:49] BigFree> then you subtract that which is lost due to unit support
[22:49] MasterZen> no math tonight... pleeeease

[22:49] BigFree> So anything above a Medium sized army cost more in Republic than it would in Monarchy
[22:49] BigFree> LoL
[22:50] BigFree> Just look at it as another option
[22:50] BigFree> we give you Monarchy and our WM for you WM
[22:50] BigFree> this is more than fair
[22:51] MasterZen> I'll bring it up for the team
[22:51] BigFree> Think about why we chose Monarchy over republic
[22:51] BigFree> ok then
[22:51] BigFree> if not what do you think is fair then?
[22:51] MasterZen> because you are Spain and you love to roleplay :P
[22:51] BigFree> LoL
No further responses

**Togas** · May 26, 2003, 14:36

I received the following Email from Darekill of ND:

Hello dear Togas,
I know it has been quiet the last weeks.
As you might know our Gouvernor Mav-son is missing and he is it that gives the orders.
Borc and I have been ellectet to play the turns but we are bound to the rules he made.
That is why we will keep the contact formal.
Your Troops in the north are close to a city that we will found in the next turn.
Please leave otherwise you will end up in our Territory. This would not be good.
Darekill
elected player for ND

I replied to him that we would certainly move any units that got caught inside their Cultural Borders, and that if he could tell me specifically which unit needs to be moved, we'd move it this turn.

--Togas

**Togas** · May 26, 2003, 16:05

Response from Darekill:

Dear Tom,
do you see our Spearmen with a Settler on the side of the hill with the gold?
This Settler will found there the City of Mavdat. So you should know which Troops are concerned.
Thank you for your quick response.
Darekill

--Togas

**BigFree** · June 5, 2003, 18:47

PM sent to Darekill of ND as well as MZ of GoW. The PM's were slightly different in only the names of the teams.

Hi

I'd like to be able to get in a chat with you or your team members. I would like GoW to also be there. Sort of a "Bobian" Conference.

I have set up a chat room on irc that you can show up in at anytime.

type: /join #PTWDGConference Together

It is labeld as "GoW-ND-RP Conference Room"
"Together" is the password.

I look forward to seeing you there. We can talk about border agreements, settling agreements, the "Bobian Alliance", and what ever else you have concerns with right now.

BigFree

**BigFree** · June 5, 2003, 20:20

Chat with vondrack of Lego. Trying to get a feel for what they think is going on with Vox and trying to get something for our invlovemnet in case we give Iron to Vox.

Session Start: Thu Jun 05 16:28:59 2003
Session Ident: vondrack
[16:29] [BigFree] hey vond can you chat a bit about the PTWDG?
[16:29] [vondrack] yep
[16:30] [BigFree] Vox's situation looks bad but not hopeless to me; what's your take?
[16:30] [vondrack] though - keep in mind, please, I am in no official position in Lego now
[16:30] [BigFree] I understand
[16:30] [vondrack] well, I agree
[16:30] [vondrack] bad, but hopefully not hopless
[16:30] [vondrack] hopeless
[16:30] [vondrack] I haven't heard from BetaHound for some time
[16:30] [BigFree] brb
[16:30] [BigFree] sorry
[16:30] [BigFree] phone
[16:30] [vondrack] np
[16:31] [vondrack] so I am lacking a good idea about their shape
[16:31] [vondrack] they will need to reclaim that iron, that's for sure
[16:33] [BigFree] back
[16:33] [vondrack] k
[16:33] [BigFree] RP is discussing giving them Iron
[16:34] [BigFree] it's 50/50
[16:34] [vondrack] well, anything that slows GS down and gives them troubles, helps you, us, and everybody else...
[16:34] [BigFree] howmuch more help can Lego give though and expect Vox to survive
[16:34] [vondrack] we would probably give them that iron, if having the possibility
[16:35] [vondrack] but we will not be able to until Astronomy
[16:35] [vondrack] so all we can do is provide them with money
[16:35] [BigFree] do you look at it at some point as thowing money at a problem that won't be solved?
[16:35] [vondrack] you mean - like "wasting" money?
[16:35] [BigFree] right
[16:36] [vondrack] well... could very well be the case at this very moment. But as I said - anything that gives troubles to GS is good for us (and you, too)
[16:36] [vondrack] so it is not really "wasting" money
[16:36] [BigFree] If RP gave Vox Iron, would Lego be willing to go public with their support towards Vox and RP?
[16:37] [vondrack] what would we (and anybody else, for that matter) gain by going public?
[16:37] [BigFree] Maybe even sign an Alliance against GS?
[16:37] [BigFree] It would make GS think twice about landing on Bob or Legoland
[16:38] [vondrack] nah... I do not believe GS would attempt to land on Bob or Lego
[16:38] [vondrack] not in the foreseeable future
[16:38] [BigFree] they wouldn't wnat to spread theri troops out to far with the chance that troops could come to them from many directions.
[16:38] [vondrack] they need to get rid of Voxes first
[16:38] [BigFree] right, but after that is what we are worried about
[16:39] [vondrack] yeah, right... after that - so we better try hard there is no "after that"
[16:39] [vondrack] and that is best done privately, I believe
[16:39] [BigFree] Would Lego be willing to Embargo GS?
[16:39] [BigFree] not that you trade much anyways
[16:40] [vondrack] yes, right... not that we would be trading anything...
[16:40] [vondrack] I would have to ask my teammates about this, I really do not dare to gauge the team opinion
[16:41] [vondrack] with the foolish GS approach to trading
[16:41] [BigFree] Since RP's involvement would be for the good of all teams, is ther any deals that lego could cut of RP's behalf that would help to compensate for our willingsness to go to war with GS over this Iron issue?
[16:41] [vondrack] it is actually pretty easy to embargo them
[16:41] [BigFree] true
[16:41] [vondrack] hm... do you have anything specific in mind?
[16:42] [BigFree] like cheaper tech, gold, anything else you can offer
[16:42] [BigFree] we need to mass produce units to really have a good chance at helping Vox
[16:42] [vondrack] that is always a possibility, yes (cheaper techs & gold)
[16:43] [vondrack] I am sorry if I sound a bit... vague
[16:43] [BigFree] good, maybe you can ask you team to submit a proposal that would do so if we agree to give Vox Iron and take the brunt of GS'es unhappinesss.
[16:43] [vondrack] but the thing is that we are impatiently waiting for the save
[16:44] [BigFree] we just finnished
[16:44] [BigFree] what are you guys waiting for?
[16:44] [vondrack] because we have switched our gov and will now see how we are doing under Rep
[16:44] [BigFree] ah, nice!
[16:44] [vondrack] we will be much wiser then
[16:44] [BigFree] yes you will
[16:44] [BigFree] were you despot before?
[16:45] [vondrack] yes
[16:45] [BigFree] or just Monarchy
[16:45] [BigFree] ok
[16:45] [BigFree] My team made a decison to go to Monarchy long before me

[16:45] [vondrack] I believe that I can say we WILL join the anti-GS coalition (as if we were not part of it already)
[16:45] [vondrack] just that I am not sure if we need to go public with that
[16:45] [BigFree] no, not really
[16:46] [BigFree] but if you can help RP out, that would be enough
[16:46] [vondrack] was switching to Mon a bad idea?
[16:46] [BigFree] no, but not switching to Republic is
[16:46] [vondrack] I see
[16:46] [vondrack] well, BF... let's try this
[16:46] [BigFree] I believe that they were unaware of the no war weariness in MP
[16:47] [vondrack] have your FAM dept come up with some sort of an idea regarding Lego aid to RP
[16:47] [vondrack] I do not think we would rush to throw techs and gold at you without being prompted
[16:48] [BigFree] LOL
[16:48] [vondrack] but if you send us a clear proposal
[16:48] [vondrack] we will sure do our best
[16:48] [vondrack] as a matter of fact
[16:48] [vondrack] there was a post by our current Prez today
[16:48] [vondrack] asking for strengthening ties with you
[16:49] [vondrack] this would be a great way to do so
[16:49] [vondrack] as you correctly pointed out few days ago
[16:49] [vondrack] "cheapness" is relative
[16:49] [vondrack] so asking for "cheap" techs will get us nowhere
[16:49] [vondrack] you need to state the price
[16:51] [BigFree] cool

; besides Theology what other techs do you have and what are you researching now, if you can say?
[16:51] [vondrack] ATM, we are ready to trade Theology - that is the only tech we have available for trade
[16:51] [vondrack] I mean - we do not have any other discovered yet
[16:51] [vondrack] researching Education
[16:51] [vondrack] no idea on ETA
[16:52] [vondrack] will be wiser once we get the save
[16:52] [vondrack] most probably, we will go for Astronomy then
[16:52] [vondrack] but that also depends on how our Theo deals go
[16:53] [BigFree] ok, thanks for the info.

we are waiting on recieving Chiv from GoW as you are too.
[16:53] [vondrack] if we fail to reasonably "secure" Sistine's, we may need to go for Bach's, delaying Astronomy
[16:53] [vondrack] Bach's = Music Theory
[16:53] [BigFree] Ihate those techs
[16:53] [vondrack] which would delay Astronomy
[16:53] [vondrack] Astronomy = possibility to trade resources/luxuries
[16:54] [vondrack] so, we are not sure yet
[16:54] [vondrack] too many variables
[16:54] [BigFree] I would rathe have Copernicus(Astronomy) than Bachs
[16:54] [vondrack]

[16:54] [vondrack] not us
[16:54] [vondrack] we lack luxuries
[16:54] [vondrack] happiness problems
[16:54] [vondrack] we need wonders that help to keep the pop happy
[16:55] [BigFree] we can trade luxes to you after you get Astronomy, so that might change things for you.
[16:56] [vondrack] hehe... but that is just replacing one problem with another - by "trading" for other luxuries, we need to spend resources (gold, techs...)
[16:56] [vondrack] which is basically the same as using the lux slider
[16:56] [BigFree] right, it waht ever offer's the better situation at the time
[16:57] [vondrack] so, while we do look forward to being able to trade luxuries, we know we must not rely on the lux trade too much
[16:57] [BigFree] understandable
[16:58] [BigFree] we will get back to you with a proposal on the aid package
[16:58] [vondrack] we'll see... anyway, we will be happy to support your involvement in the Vox-GS war
[16:58] [vondrack] yes, great
[16:59] [BigFree] thanks for the chat vond
[16:59] [vondrack] my pleasure

[16:59] [BigFree] RP and Lego can be great friends
[16:59] [BigFree] we can have tea parties
[16:59] [vondrack] LoL
[16:59] [BigFree] OK

[16:59] [BigFree] LOL
[17:00] [vondrack] right, I am off to bed now
[17:00] [vondrack] g'night!
[17:00] [BigFree] good night, sleep well
[17:00] [vondrack] thanks
[17:00] [vondrack] bye

**GodKing** · June 5, 2003, 22:59

A request - reading logs of what was said has it's moments, but a paragraph or two summerizing it all would often be better.... If those who were in the chat can write up something quick, it would also allow us to know if we are reading the "feeling" of what was said correctly. Just an idea is all. Thanks.

Ghost of GK

**Nuclear Winter** · June 8, 2003, 16:35

HEy folks, just so that you know, LEgoland now knows we have changed capitol. They comented it today in an uncompromised chat I had with Nimitz, wich BTW was about other things.

**Togas** · June 8, 2003, 20:15

Nuc, please give us a report of what your chat with Nimitz was about.

--Togas

**BigFree** · June 9, 2003, 01:51

GS RP chat

Session Start: Sun Jun 08 17:57:02 2003
Session Ident: #PTWTalks
[17:57] * Now talking in #PTWTalks
[17:57] * Retrieving #PTWTalks info...
[17:57] * BigFree sets mode: +nps
[17:57] * BigFree sets mode: +k Sandwich
[17:58] * E_T_outside_smoking has joined #PTWTalks
[17:59] * E_T_outside_smoking is now known as E_T
[17:59] * BigFree sets mode: +o E_T
[17:59] E_T- who is going to be here?
[17:59] BigFree- I talked to OPD
[17:59] BigFree- he may show up
[17:59] BigFree- I just sent him the info
[17:59] BigFree- I asked if he could chat and he said when, then I sent this cahnnel info
[18:00] E_T- do we want the big harry eyeball here?
[18:00] BigFree- we'll see
[18:00] BigFree- LOL
[18:00] BigFree- as a MOD
[18:00] BigFree- LOL
[18:00] BigFree- sure
[18:00] BigFree- he can come
[18:05] * Trip- has joined #ptwtalks
[18:05] Trip-- what's goin down in here :P
[18:05] E_T- waiting for GS to show
[18:05] Trip-- ahhh
[18:05] Trip-- fun
[18:05] * Trip- is now known as Trip[gone]
[18:05] Trip[gone]- I'll be back later
[18:05] Trip[gone]- say hello for me :P
[18:06] E_T- Your just here as the big harry eyeball....
[18:06] E_T-

[18:07] * BigFree sets mode: +o Trip[gone]
[18:11] * opd has joined #PTWTalks
[18:11] opd- lo
[18:11] E_T- hello there
[18:11] opd- Finally made it
[18:11] opd- was on Undernet
[18:12] E_T- Yes, it's the back up...
[18:12] * E_T sets mode: +o opd
[18:12] opd- So whats new then guys
[18:12] E_T- but with polychat back up...
[18:13] opd- Do you chat alot in RP?
[18:13] E_T- we feel that GS and RP need to communicate more often than has previously been done in th epast
[18:13] opd- Very true
[18:13] opd- there is alot of changes underway in GS
[18:13] E_T- RP is almost always has someone in our chatroom
[18:13] opd- concerning the way diplomacy is carried out
[18:14] opd- really?
[18:14] E_T- that and just general communication
[18:14] opd- I should have joined RP methinks
[18:14] E_T- we have a lot of fun at times
[18:14] opd- GS is very different to the SPDG
[18:15] E_T- we even roleplayed the poly crash and the game crash
[18:15] opd- lol
[18:15] opd- BTW due to GS regulations I've kinda gotta record this is that ok
[18:15] E_T- we called the poly crash, the Great storm of whatever year it was.
[18:15] BigFree- hola
[18:16] E_T- We have no problems with you recording the chat
[18:16] opd- ok so how do I save teh chat
[18:16] opd- I did know once
[18:16] E_T- just log it
[18:16] BigFree- for me it saves automatically
[18:16] E_T- are you using mIRC?
[18:17] opd- yup. How do I log
[18:17] opd- no wait have figured it out.
[18:17] E_T- the little box on the top of the screen that says PTWTalks, right click and check logging
[18:18] opd- cheers
[18:18] E_T-

[18:18] BigFree- cool
[18:18] E_T- are you setup now?
[18:18] opd- yup
[18:18] BigFree- we can always send you one too
[18:19] opd- So is there someone in this channel at all times
[18:19] E_T- yes, if you so wish, just to get the first few lines...
[18:19] BigFree- no, I just set it up
[18:19] E_T- not this one, but the RP one, yes
[18:19] opd- Can anyone join the RP one?
[18:19] BigFree- no only RP'ers
[18:19] BigFree- it has a password on it
[18:20] opd- Is the password sandwich?
[18:20] BigFree- LOL
[18:20] BigFree- Bologna Sandwich
[18:20] BigFree- or Ham Sandwich, I forget...
[18:20] BigFree-

[18:20] E_T- but I imagine that BF can set up a room for specific GS-RP chats for a later talks, etc
[18:20] BigFree- at any time
[18:20] BigFree- I can leave this one up too
[18:21] BigFree- we can make this permanent if youlike
[18:21] opd- Yeah cool.
[18:21] E_T- Oh, just to let you know, Trip is here to record for postarity (not his posterior), our talks....
[18:22] E_T- I would rather that we make a different room for future use
[18:22] opd- So whats the deal with GoW they want us to select their leader
[18:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +tr
[18:22] E_T- call it GS-RPtalks or some such
[18:22] E_T- I think that GF did a shiber
[18:22] opd- Ok E_T prob best contact MSS he's in charge of FA now
[18:23] opd- Shiber?
[18:23] * BigFree changes topic to 'GS-RPtalks'
[18:23] * opd changes topic to 'RP-GStalks'
[18:23] E_T- Remember the first few weeks of the PTWDG, shiber posted in the open forum something that was supposed to go in our private one?
[18:24] opd- lol sry I just figured out how to do that
[18:24] opd- lol wasn't around for that
[18:24] E_T- we all had a big laugh about it
[18:24] E_T- And I had actually done one, too. But Edited it before anyone had read it....
[18:25] opd- Don't see you guys in the SPDG much anymore?
[18:25] opd- Did you hear about the chat on sat
[18:25] E_T- Too busy with Real life, for me that is
[18:25] E_T- No, what happened?
[18:26] opd- We took 2 cities and can sue for 4 more
[18:26] E_T- damn
[18:26] E_T- they are doing very good for a deity game
[18:26] opd- I think were doing better than the original
[18:26] opd- Gk has really turned things around
[18:26] E_T- I had attended a couple of chats, but didn't like the speed of play
[18:27] E_T- I'm just spoiled from teh other game I guess
[18:27] opd- not like in the olden days
[18:27] E_T- I like to download the save every turn
[18:27] opd- I may be doing a chat this week
[18:28] opd- If so I'm going to race through it to make GK look really slow
[18:28] E_T- and then look at things (whick messes up the RNG) and then download the next turn fresh
[18:29] BigFree- At Diety, there's not much of a chnace still, but thing s are begining to look better
[18:29] E_T- but If i "play" along, I can't do that as much without having a thing or 2 different
[18:29] opd- One change I've noticed is that pretty much everything is done in the chats these days
[18:29] E_T- But then again, that's my style of play
[18:29] opd- BF I think were going to do it.
[18:29] BigFree- I hope so
[18:30] BigFree- I did have my doubts early on.
[18:30] BigFree- If we didn't win tha first battle, it would be over now
[18:30] E_T- of course, it does take time for everyone to get the save, but then, if someone can't make the chat for whatever reason, they have the saves to look at later
[18:30] E_T- Anyways, communication
[18:31] opd- ok
[18:31] E_T- We at RP feel that we need to talk
[18:31] E_T- grrrr, brb
[18:31] opd- smoke break?
[18:31] BigFree- Did you guys ever talk peace at all with Vox since this war has begun?
[18:32] opd- Yes
[18:32] opd- BTW I must mention
[18:32] opd- I don not represent GS in any official capacity
[18:33] BigFree- sure
[18:33] opd- Some things I cannot tell you and somethings I can only give you my personal opinion on
[18:33] BigFree- who's going to be your ambassador if the current one wuits?
[18:33] E_T- had to help in the kitchen, dinner is just about ready...
[18:33] opd- Don't know.
[18:34] opd- I think DeepO may stay on
[18:34] BigFree- ok, cool
[18:34] opd- it could be me or maybe zeit, shiber or MSS
[18:34] opd- only time will tell
[18:34] BigFree- pass him the info for this channel if you would
[18:34] opd- will do
[18:34] BigFree- who's MSS?
[18:35] opd- ManicStarSeed
[18:35] E_T- hmmm, I have sometimes had trouble reading his PM's when we did get them
[18:35] BigFree- thnaks
[18:35] E_T- DeepO that is
[18:35] opd- I can bring that up if you like
[18:35] E_T- sorry, I have to go
[18:35] * E_T is now known as E_T_dinnertime
[18:35] opd- Ok
[18:36] BigFree- so what kind of peace was offered?
[18:36] BigFree- was it recent long ago pr both?
[18:36] E_T_dinnertime- talk to him about the possible lux trade and what we will need for that
[18:36] BigFree- sure
[18:36] BigFree- eat and enjoy
[18:36] opd- gotta check forum
[18:37] BigFree- sure
[18:37] opd- BB et
[18:38] opd- hmmmn
[18:38] opd- not to sure about the peace with vox as wasn't around much
[18:38] BigFree- oh, you just joined GS recently?
[18:39] opd- There has always been alot of on going talk about what would be acceptable for peace
[18:39] BigFree- I joined RP about 6 weeks ago myself
[18:39] opd- no IIRC correctly was one of the first to join GS
[18:39] opd- back when it was all about beating trip
[18:39] BigFree- oh, you mean you have not been that active...
[18:39] BigFree- LOL
[18:40] opd- thats right have been internetless
[18:40] BigFree-

[18:40] BigFree- so are you guys now offering peace to Vox?
[18:40] opd- We have had talks around peace with Vox recently
[18:41] BigFree- CP
[18:41] E_T_dinnertime- anything promicing?
[18:41] E_T_dinnertime- back for just a moment
[18:41] BigFree- don't type with your mouth full..
[18:41] BigFree-

[18:41] opd- The concensus view is still too much that we were badly screwed over by vox
[18:41] E_T_dinnertime- it's almost ready, I had to make the salads...
[18:42] BigFree- my diiner
[18:42] BigFree- is ready too
[18:42] BigFree- NY steak
[18:42] opd- Alot of us are unsure about peace aslong as the chance of them doing it again.
[18:42] BigFree- that would be a concern
[18:42] opd- is still there
[18:42] E_T_dinnertime- we agree, but we also don't want to lose a good trading partner (to us that is)like vox
[18:42] E_T_dinnertime- not atleast without someone to replace them
[18:42] BigFree- LOL
[18:43] opd- Are you aware of the peace talks going on between GS and Vox
[18:43] BigFree- we have some lux we can trae you, but you don't have a harbor yet
[18:43] opd- don't we?
[18:43] E_T_dinnertime- We don't think that they would try to do anything like that again, atleast for a very long time
[18:43] BigFree- nope, we can't trade with you on the screen
[18:44] E_T_dinnertime- If you do go with peace, what will their status be?
[18:44] E_T_dinnertime- we don't know of one, that's the most imprtant thing
[18:45] opd- hmmmn they will not pose a threat to GS
[18:45] * Togas has joined #ptwtalks
[18:45] opd- lo togas
[18:45] Togas- hello
[18:45] E_T_dinnertime- If you do have a harbor, without some form of map to let us know were it's at, we can't trade to you
[18:45] BigFree- brb, getting my dinner
[18:45] * E_T_dinnertime sets mode: +o Togas
[18:46] opd- We can certainly arrange a harbour and map linking
[18:46] E_T_dinnertime- 2 people having dinner, and togas just finished his
[18:46] BigFree- we should be the food team!
[18:46] BigFree- Spanish Food Team
[18:47] opd- We are aware that you helped vox out in some way at the beginning of the war.
[18:47] E_T_dinnertime- please, Hey OPD, have you joined a PTWDG II team yet? Join team sunshine...
[18:47] opd- Am a master. I could always switch though
[18:48] opd- It is my view that Vox were seen as long term trading partners for yourselves
[18:48] E_T_dinnertime- we had trade dealings with Vox, but as I said, they have been very good trade partners with RP
[18:48] E_T_dinnertime- so the begining of the war and our deals just happend to coinside
[18:49] opd- So vox status
[18:49] opd- I wouldn't count on them as anything other than a tech at the start of a new era.
[18:50] opd- And even that may be in doubt
[18:50] E_T_dinnertime- as did deals that were already made that occured after the war had started, but were finalized long before the war had started
[18:50] E_T_dinnertime- one of the things that RP doesn't want to to renig on a deal and then be called bad things from it
[18:51] E_T_dinnertime- I have to eat, back in a while
[18:52] opd- Ever drink desperados?
[18:53] opd- tastes too limey
[18:54] opd- So anyway
[18:54] opd- anyone there?
[18:54] opd- ????????
[18:54] opd- oh how rude
[18:55] opd- and I thought we were making progress
[18:55] opd- still pinging at 1 sec
[18:55] opd- ok back in 5 mins
[18:55] opd- were just about to get somewhere
[18:57] Togas- OPD, sorry!
[18:57] Togas- I'm not sure where the other two are, but I'm doing the save right now in another window
[18:58] Togas- If you have any questions, let me know.
[19:04] opd- You there?
[19:05] Togas- yes
[19:05] Togas- but trying to finish up save ... I have houseguests right now, we're going bowling shortly
[19:05] BigFree- back
[19:05] opd- can we continue this some other time?
[19:05] Togas- so I've been mostly idle
[19:05] opd- wb BF
[19:05] BigFree- I can talk now
[19:05] BigFree- sorry about that
[19:05] opd- is ok
[19:06] Togas- please keep chatting, I'm going to take screenshots now, then send off the save.
[19:06] BigFree- let mne review what has been said so I can continue
[19:07] opd- cannot stay much longer
[19:07] BigFree- ok, fished reading
[19:07] opd- it's 3 am here and have been at work all day
[19:07] BigFree- we were dealing with Vox well before the war
[19:08] opd- ok
[19:08] BigFree- and the made deals before the war even started with us
[19:08] opd- thats understood
[19:08] BigFree- we have not made any deals since the war has begun
[19:08] opd- so now perhaps you are looking for a new trading partner
[19:08] BigFree- the war took us by complete surprise
[19:09] BigFree- maybe they thought they couldn't truyst us to tell us that they were going to attack you
[19:09] BigFree- I guess they could have thought GS and RP were buddies
[19:09] opd- Do you know if any other civs played a role in the war?
[19:09] BigFree- except for that skirmish with GoW, no
[19:10] opd- How did lego react tot he war
[19:10] Togas- OPD, I think that GS has been far too supicious. If you guys would have just talked to any of us and kept normal relations during the war, there wouldn't be all of this paranoia and finger pointing.
[19:10] BigFree- How does Lego react to anything, they don't, they are happy being all alone to be able to build, they are not intersted in concerniong themselvs on other Civ's affairs.
[19:11] opd- there is a belief among some people that vox had a puppet master
[19:11] Togas- That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
[19:11] BigFree- I think Vox took it all upon themselves to do this
[19:11] BigFree- They knew they had a certain window in which to use thier Immortals
[19:12] opd- I must note that this is not at all a stumbling block towards trades and relations between RP and GS
[19:12] BigFree- I think you guys hsould have been more prepared for it, frankly.
[19:12] Togas- if we were in on it, they would have been a Monarchy before they attacked you.
[19:12] opd- yeah probably
[19:12] Togas- E_T was crying over the fact that we couldn't get them to buy Monarchy after they attacked you
[19:13] BigFree- He was, it was fuuny, even after the fact
[19:13] opd- it's just that they recieved alot of money to upgrade to immortals
[19:13] opd- but thats all in the past
[19:13] opd- no onw is in anyway pointing any fingers
[19:13] BigFree- maybe they've been banking all their cash for a while
[19:14] opd- perhaps
[19:14] BigFree- All I know is that we have two Civ's on Estonia that we wnat to trade with, it hurts us not too.
[19:14] opd- so anyway I really don't think we should concern ourselves with that
[19:14] BigFree- agreed
[19:14] opd- it matters not
[19:15] BigFree- what kind of luxeries do you guys have to trade?
[19:15] opd- don't know
[19:16] opd- well to tell you the truth I can't say
[19:16] opd- at this point anyway
[19:16] BigFree- np
[19:16] BigFree- just be aware that we want to trade some with you guys, if you are interested
[19:16] opd- We would be
[19:16] BigFree-

[19:17] opd- what are you proposing
[19:17] BigFree- but, i think you need a harbor first
[19:17] opd- yeah
[19:17] opd- How are you for resources?
[19:17] BigFree- I'm proposing we swap luxeries for now, but maybe more..
[19:18] opd- are you reserching any tech
[19:18] BigFree- we are fine we have extras we'd like to take advatage of and trae, as would any Civ.
[19:18] BigFree- not really reaseraching anything yet, we just buy it form opther's for now, we are a porr nation.

LOL
[19:20] BigFree- what are you guys reaserching; what can we buy from you in the fuutre?
[19:23] opd- there are lots of things that we could research.
[19:23] opd- what are you interested in having.
[19:23] E_T_dinnertime- back, salad, big baked potato and a thick Ribeye steak with mushrooms.... Yummy!!
[19:23] * E_T_dinnertime is now known as E_T
[19:23] opd- WB et
[19:23] BigFree- anything really, at this popint
[19:24] opd- like I said I don't know
[19:24] opd- I think gow are trying to pre sell chiv but we could easily research it before they get it
[19:24] E_T- we will have Ivory, Silks and spices that we can soon trade
[19:25] opd- wow nice
[19:25] E_T- but as we don't have links to most of the other civs, we don't have anyone to trade with
[19:25] opd- are there any lux on voxs territory?
[19:26] opd- A link can easily be arranged
[19:26] E_T- so we have put off getting extras connected until we have a potenial customer for them
[19:26] Togas- RP save was sent to Vox
[19:26] Togas- I'm just about to head out. Please continue discussions.
[19:27] opd- bb togas
[19:27] Togas- take care

[19:27] opd- u2
[19:27] opd- ok so heres the situation
[19:28] * Togas has left #ptwtalks
[19:28] opd- I don't speak for GS
[19:28] opd- and the way things work it's hard to know people opinion on certain things
[19:29] opd- from what has been said
[19:29] opd- you are suggesting lux trading
[19:29] opd- I can bring this to my people and we can come to a decision
[19:29] opd- I afraid I cannot commit to anything really
[19:30] opd- other than that I will try to make this happen
[19:31] opd- although the way things are I think GS will go for this
[19:32] E_T- We can work at getting extras of our luxes connected for trades
[19:32] opd- That would be very beneficial to both of us,

**BigFree** · June 9, 2003, 01:52

Page 2 of GS-RP chat

[19:32] E_T- as we are still trying to get out land settler and teh cities that have luxes connected
[19:33] opd- although I think research is where GS would really like to have good relations
[19:33] E_T- You have likely gotten a map of us from GoW, you will know that we have a lot of mountains to fight through with non-industru\ious workers
[19:34] E_T- we do know from our intel that you have a city or 2 that is at very large sizes
[19:34] opd- you can see EOTS on top 5?
[19:34] E_T- so you must be running at very high lux taxs and or using specialist
[19:35] opd- The internal structure of GS is amazing.
[19:35] E_T- I think so, be we have goten some rumors from the others as to some of what might be going on
[19:36] E_T- I do know that GoW was wanting to sell us a map that had small area of yours, but their price was a bit too high for us at the time
[19:36] opd- not the best land but a very good use of it
[19:36] opd- yeah thats pretty much useless
[19:37] opd- how much they charging?
[19:37] E_T- and the last map that we did get from Vox showed one of your cities, on the coast, but it doesn't have a harbor

[19:38] opd- ok I gotta go in a min
[19:38] E_T- I really can't remember, as I wasn't involed with those talks and didn't read those threads (too many other things going on)
[19:38] opd- perhaps you'd like to have another get together perhaps with another GSer aswell.
[19:38] E_T- sure, when would you like?
[19:38] opd- Must test the water as to what other people think.
[19:39] opd- don't know about time will have to speak to the powers that be.
[19:39] E_T- O.k., do you have Bigfree's e-mail addy?
[19:39] opd- no
[19:39] BigFree- Pm's work for me as well
[19:39] opd- ok
[19:40] opd- gotta go then guys
[19:40] BigFree- but here's my addy : bigfree1@attbi.com
[19:40] opd- nice to talk to you
[19:40] BigFree- you too
[19:40] E_T- let me dig it up, as we like to email and PM at the same time (PM's can get lost if you don't log on to Poly, but e-mails can't really be ignored, IMHO)
[19:40] opd- I for one am glad we had this discussion
[19:40] BigFree- definatley
[19:40] BigFree- I just wished I could type better!
[19:41] BigFree- and faster
[19:41] E_T- I'm at e_t_1@mpinet.com
[19:41] E_T- do you need us to send you any of this conversation?
[19:42] opd- no can save it
[19:42] opd- ok see you soon
[19:42] BigFree- adios
[19:42] E_T- alright, just wasn't sure you got the very first part is all
[19:42] BigFree- this channel is permannet now
[19:42] opd- oh ****
[19:42] E_T- have fun in jolly ol'....
[19:42] opd- forgot to start logging
[19:42] BigFree- oops
[19:43] opd- can you send me a copy?
[19:43] E_T- what's your e-mail addy, I'll send it to you
[19:43] BigFree- I can send to you, what is your email?
[19:43] opd- dwyerowen(at)hotmail.com
[19:43] opd- cheers
[19:43] opd- ok see you
[19:43] * opd has quit IRC (Quit: **** you)
[19:44] BigFree- i hope that wasn't meant for us. LOL
[19:44] E_T- I have to quit this channel to attach the log
[19:44] BigFree- ok
[19:44] BigFree- I'll stay
[19:44] E_T- no, he has that as a standard for mIRC
[19:44] * E_T has left #PTWTalks
[20:03] * E_T has joined #PTWTalks
[20:14] * nbarclay has joined #PTWTalks
[20:15] E_T- Hello there
[20:16] nbarclay- OPD posted a message a couple hours ago indicating that BigFree wanted to chat with someone from GS. I just got it and figured I'd pop in.
[20:16] E_T- Nathan, haven't chatted with you for a long time
[20:16] nbarclay- I don't tend to chat much. Pretty much just on GS business.
[20:17] E_T- yes, we chatted for a while, do you want us to send you the log?
[20:17] nbarclay- And yeah, it's been a while.

[20:18] * Trip[gone] is now known as Trip-
[20:18] E_T- they harry eyeball is back
[20:19] BigFree- he's no trouble as long as he's quiet...
[20:19] Trip-- I'm always watching :P
[20:19] Trip-- don't mind me, I'll just be reading what's already been said in here

[20:19] BigFree- We were taling lux trades with OPD ealier
[20:20] BigFree- it seems you need a harbor in order for this to happen
[20:21] nbarclay- But I'm the main player and coordinator for GS, and that takes a LOT of time.
[20:21] nbarclay- Especially with the Vox war.
[20:21] E_T- but it's a challenge, makes it more exciting, IMHO
[20:22] nbarclay- True.
[20:22] E_T- anyways, yes, lux trades and more lines of communications
[20:22] nbarclay- And if there were a few more hours in each day, I might actually have time for it.

[20:23] E_T- I have to make time..... between work and homelife....
[20:24] BigFree- I steal time from other's; I just mugged an old lady for 35 minutes the other day..
[20:24] nbarclay-

[20:24] E_T- Is that all you got from here
[20:24] nbarclay- All I got from where?
[20:24] BigFree- the ***** was poor, her time was almost up, so to speak
[20:24] BigFree- he meant *her
[20:24] E_T- *her, talking to BF
[20:25] BigFree- ok, back to business
[20:25] nbarclay- So did you get anywhere in discussions with OPD other than finding out we don't have a harbor yet?
[20:26] BigFree- we knew that already
[20:26] E_T- anyways, as we were telling OPD, we will be having several luxurues connected up relatively soon and will need customers for them
[20:26] BigFree- he didn't have to say
[20:26] nbarclay- Knew from the fact that trades were grayed out?
[20:27] E_T- we actually don't know if you have a city that already has one or if you are even building one sometime soon
[20:27] BigFree- We saw a Galley of yours near our coast and since we don't havbe a sea route yet, you must not have a harbor.
[20:27] E_T- Yes, cant even try to trade with you
[20:28] nbarclay- Would trades show up on your end if you don't know where our harbor is? I'm not sure how the mechanics of that work.
[20:28] nbarclay- (With AIs, you pretty much always have their map by this point.)
[20:28] E_T- Brb, need to have a smoke, too long after dinner and I didn't get one after OPD left
[20:28] BigFree- If you canb trade with us, then we can trade with you, it works both ways
[20:29] E_T- pathfinder ruotine needs an endpoint that it can route to
[20:29] BigFree- As sson as we saw you Galley, a sea route was opened, but no harbor to connect to.
[20:30] * E_T is now known as E_T_outside_smoking
[20:30] BigFree- If you had a harbor, as soon as you saw ours, a path would have been open
[20:31] nbarclay- In any case, yes, we will need to build a harbor before we can start trading. The question is, is there a prospective trade that would make it worth our while to speed up that process.
[20:31] BigFree- anyways, it is apparent that we could trade luxes.
[20:32] nbarclay- I thought Lux was gone.

[20:32] BigFree- we have extra luxes and you have large cities that need them
[20:32] BigFree- LOL
[20:33] nbarclay- How many luxuries do you have that you're in a position to trade right now?
[20:33] BigFree- We could probably go one for one on the Luxes and then if we have extra's we could do other deals, most likely fo rtech and such.
[20:33] BigFree- WE can get them linked up very soon, we have two right now,IIRC
[20:34] BigFree- the other two, very soon
[20:34] BigFree- depends on how fast you need them
[20:34] BigFree- and what we would get in return
[20:35] Trip-- so you mean you have 4 total?
[20:35] BigFree- yes
[20:35] Trip-- confusion :P
[20:35] BigFree- back to the hole now
[20:35] BigFree- what is so confusing
[20:36] Trip-- [21:33] BigFree- WE can get them linked up very soon, we have two right now,IIRC
[20:36] Trip-- [21:34] BigFree- the other two, very soon
[20:36] BigFree- he asked what we have avaialble for trade "right now"
[20:36] BigFree- so, two "right now"
[20:36] BigFree- then the other two depending...
[20:37] Trip-- chat with him, not me :P
[20:37] BigFree- that's what I said "back to the hole now"
[20:37] nbarclay- Any thoughts on what you would want for the luxuries once we get them hooked up?
[20:38] BigFree- well, like I said; one for one on the luxes till you have no more to offer, then we can trade the other lux(s) for techs and such; it's up for negotiating.
[20:38] nbarclay- you get them hooked up
[20:38] nbarclay- I mean
[20:38] BigFree- right
[20:38] BigFree- I knew
[20:40] BigFree- If you have two, we trade those straight up most likely. Then if you have no other luxes we can substitute gold/tech/other stuff for the trades.
[20:40] BigFree- What would you offer for two luxeries?
[20:41] E_T_outside_smoking- one thing that we are in the "decision crux" is how soon to connect up our extra luxes
[20:41] nbarclay- At the moment, I don't think trading two would do us much good. Extra luxuries only matter if they let you change the luxury slider setting.
[20:42] nbarclay- And in a GA, with big cities, each notch of the luxury slider is pretty big.
[20:42] E_T_outside_smoking- as we have non-industrious workers and lots ou mountains to deal with, it take time and effort to get things done
[20:42] E_T_outside_smoking- but if we know that we have a customer for the "goods", then we can look at expiditing thigs somewaht
[20:42] BigFree- but,you GA willnot last forever
[20:43] * E_T_outside_smoking is now known as E_T_taking_trash_out
[20:43] E_T_taking_trash_out- BRB
[20:44] nbarclay- Agreed that the GA won't last forever. But keep in mind that we also have a timing question: how high a priority do we make a harbor?
[20:45] BigFree- true, it's up to you on that; we can only offer what we have for right now and you can make a counter offe to see how important it is too your team.
[20:45] Trip-- trade uranium for aluminum and rubber :P
[20:45] BigFree- let's say we go straight up on two luxes for two luxes; how important is that to your team?
[20:46] nbarclay- I think this is something I'll need to post to the team message board and see what our level of interest is. We'll also have to check what other civs on your continent have the same luxuries.
[20:46] BigFree- then is your team willing to trade techs for the other 2 luxes?
[20:46] BigFree- sure
[20:46] BigFree- I can tell you now though
[20:47] Trip-- "They would be insulted by this deal!"
[20:47] nbarclay- Insulted by what deal?
[20:47] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +o Trip-
[20:47] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -o Trip-
[20:47] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -v Trip-
[20:47] Trip-- that's always what the AI says :P
[20:47] BigFree- LOL
[20:48] BigFree- the AI is a Moron though, but that's why you get along with him I guess.

[20:48] E_T_taking_trash_out- Trip, your here to observe
[20:48] nbarclay- Tech-for-luxury deals work great for human players who have a nice lead over AIs.
[20:48] nbarclay- But this game is a whole lot closer.
[20:48] Trip-- the AI doesn't like vice versa though :P
[20:48] BigFree- It is a close game
[20:49] BigFree- each team will try to kockey for the most of their resources
[20:49] nbarclay- Kockey?
[20:49] BigFree- We would not blame you for that either
[20:49] E_T_taking_trash_out- one moment
[20:49] BigFree- *Jockey
[20:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +m
[20:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v Trip-
[20:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -v Trip-
[20:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v nbarclay
[20:50] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v E_T_taking_trash_out
[20:50] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v BigFree
[20:50] E_T_taking_trash_out- there
[20:50] * E_T_taking_trash_out is now known as E_T
[20:50] E_T- he can observe but not talk
[20:50] nbarclay- I think this is complicated enough that I'll need to take it back to the team for discussion of what we might want to do.
[20:50] * Trip- has left #ptwtalks
[20:51] BigFree- RP will try to get the most it can reasonably get for our resources, GS would be wise to do the same; no one can blame anyone for trying to do that.
[20:51] nbarclay- Agreed. The real fun is trying to find overlap in our concepts of what is "reasonable."

[20:51] BigFree- You have to take what the game mechanics allow you to take
[20:52] BigFree- right
[20:52] E_T- also, please remember that we have to work to get them available, so it's no little effort on our part, either
[20:52] BigFree- that's the diplomacy model the AI cannot do the "right way"
[20:53] BigFree- yes, he knows that we don't go to he far reaches of our Civ to hook up unneeded Luxes
[20:53] nbarclay- I assume you'd be willing to take gold rather than techs if we can find common ground on the amount?
[20:53] BigFree- but if we have a proposal on the table, we'll make it a priority
[20:54] nbarclay- I understand about your problem of trying to figure out how big a priority to make hooking up luxuries for trading purposes.
[20:54] BigFree- gold versus techs?? We'd be inclined to take techs, but if there's enough gold to buy one form someone else, then that's all the same to us.
[20:54] E_T- or maybe a discount for the techs, in conjunction with the luxes
[20:55] BigFree- right, we are flexible and would rather make a fair deal than try to rob you.
[20:55] nbarclay- Frankly, after what happened with Feudalism, GS is going to be a LOI more reluctant to push the tech pace than we would have been.
[20:55] nbarclay- We thought we had deals lined up in advance with GoW and ND.
[20:56] nbarclay- ND pulled out because the deal hadn't gone through proper procedural channels, and ended up getting it from someone else.
[20:56] BigFree-

[20:56] nbarclay- You went for the cheap price from GoW.
[20:56] BigFree- sounds like BS to me
[20:56] nbarclay- Lego got it from someone else.
[20:56] E_T- we are traders at heart and want to have good relations with our customers, both now and in the future
[20:56] BigFree- BS on the ND part of the deal
[20:56] nbarclay- And the whole thing was a total disaster for us. The tech ended up costing us several times what it did anyone else.
[20:57] BigFree-

[20:57] BigFree- you should sell to everyone at once or none at all perhaps
[20:57] nbarclay- I can understand your desire to get the best deal, but there's such a thing as killing the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak.
[20:57] BigFree- agreed
[20:57] E_T- we are sorry, but we did try to work on that, but were told that it was a final price
[20:57] BigFree- yeah, i had heard that 200 was "final"
[20:58] E_T- as we were paying other people (more than 1) for other tech, we just coudn't afford it at that time
[20:58] nbarclay- According to the last posts to the GS board, 200 was final if you wanted the tech immediately.
[20:58] BigFree- If we had know we could buy it from you at 75 gold, we would have.
[20:59] BigFree- 10 turns later of course
[20:59] E_T- we then looked elsewhere and found a beter price from GoW (who likely sold it to the others, too)
[20:59] BigFree- yes, GoW is the ones who provbably whored your tech
[21:00] nbarclay- If I'm remembering the cost correctly, 75 gold would have been less than 1/10 of what we paid to research it. To me, that seemed more like a joke than like a reasonable offer.
[21:00] E_T- or even a little more sooner than 10 turns
[21:00] E_T- well, GoW likely got that, 3 times
[21:00] nbarclay- Especially since Togas worded it as if we needed to beat that price.
[21:00] E_T- and they payed you what, 200
[21:00] BigFree- It is really cheap, I was surprised, when i joined this game 6-7 weeks ago, that Techs were sold so cheaply
[21:01] E_T- that has actually been GoW's fault
[21:01] E_T- they are really whoring the tech and we still haven't found a way to beat them at it
[21:01] BigFree- but when you have two Civs who hav a tech, and they oth want somnething for it, they are going to drive the prices down unless the cooperrate and fix the price.
[21:02] BigFree- and when the price is fixed, you split the difference when people pay you for it.
[21:02] E_T- we were actually the ones who had first started the 10 turn no resale clause, to try to keep GoW reigned in, but they still got around it
[21:03] E_T- they would underbid quite a bit
[21:04] BigFree- Would your team be interested in trading Maps?
[21:04] E_T- and then we had to pay quite a bit for techs to get into the Middle ages and didn't get anything for Monarchy, which we put a lot of our effort into
[21:04] E_T- yes, the maps will defiately be needed to get the lux trades going
[21:05] nbarclay- We've already obtained a map of your continent. Vox sold it to us, and then turned around and used the gold to help pay for their attack on us.

[21:06] BigFree- HAHA

[21:06] E_T- it happens, we thought that they were fools to have started a war with you while they were still in despotism
[21:06] BigFree- one of those laugh and cry at the same time comments
[21:07] E_T- we didn't even understand why they didn't even want to get Monarchy from us for that, but we now know that they needed the cash for their war
[21:07] nbarclay- I thought they were fools at first myself, but then I ran the numbers on troop support costs. It's actually not that bad a government for them, and they couldn't have afforded the time it would have taken to change governments.
[21:08] E_T- true, but even with a few turns of anarchy, being in monarchy would have helped greatly
[21:09] BigFree- I agree
[21:09] nbarclay- Would it? Monarchy only provides free support for two units from towns size 6 and under. Despotism provides free support for four. (If I'm remembering right.)
[21:09] BigFree- the commerce and shield in a GA are very noticble bewtween the two goverments
[21:10] E_T- Yes, but you don't get the despotic reduction in sheilds

**BigFree** · June 9, 2003, 01:53

Page 3 of GS-RP chat

[21:10] nbarclay- Do you have a map of Vox's territory?
[21:10] E_T- or trade
[21:10] BigFree- yes, we do
[21:10] E_T- Yes, we got it about the time that the war started
[21:10] E_T- we have seen your now cities
[21:10] E_T- *new
[21:11] BigFree- Inchon, Inchoff very creative

[21:11] E_T-

[21:11] E_T- should have been Inchin, Inchout....
[21:12] E_T-

[21:12] nbarclay- I assume you see the significance of the name Inchon?
[21:12] E_T- I'm not naive...
[21:13] nbarclay- It's not a question of naivity. It's a question of knowledge of history.
[21:13] E_T- because you have royally screwed them...
[21:13] E_T- On, I was thinking of something else, but yes
[21:14] E_T- WWII
[21:14] nbarclay- Korean war.
[21:14] E_T- close, I'm not a war buff
[21:15] BigFree- North invaded the South, right?
[21:15] nbarclay- Right.
[21:15] E_T- but I do now remember that they were loading and unloading almost on the same days
[21:15] BigFree- I've heard about it, but have not read about it
[21:15] E_T- first part of the war, IIRC
[21:16] E_T- before they brought Macarther in to fight it
[21:16] E_T- then they later fired him
[21:16] nbarclay- The Inchon campaign was an amphibious landing behind North Korea's front lines.
[21:16] nbarclay- MacArthur was the one who pulled off the Inchon landing.
[21:16] nbarclay- But yes, he was fired later.
[21:16] E_T- yes, that was it
[21:17] E_T- yes, he wanted to Nuke China after they had come into the war
[21:17] BigFree- he got fired cause he didn't have enough Luxes to satiate the people back home.

[21:17] nbarclay-

[21:18] E_T- we figure that you're researching Chivalry
[21:18] BigFree- I though *** was Nationalism...
[21:19] E_T- for the war effort, If we get this lux deal hammered out, how about letting us have first crack at it?
[21:19] E_T- we know that GoW is researching it and that if ND wasn't, they are now after they got Feudalism from GoW
[21:20] * E_T still doesn't know why GoW sold them that
[21:20] nbarclay- Actually, we've had our research on hold since we got Feudalism, originally using gold to rush troops and now building up some gold we haven't decided what to do with yet.
[21:21] E_T- not even a specialist doing 1 turn research?
[21:21] nbarclay- (One of the quirks of Republic, especially with a big standing army, is that you can build up a big cash stockpile and then do a lot of research in a hurry instead of researching a little at a time.)
[21:21] BigFree- right
[21:21] nbarclay- What's the point in a specialist doing 1-turn research if you know you'll have the tech in under 40 turns?
[21:22] E_T- true
[21:22] BigFree- you use deficit spending, though you have a abnk to draw from
[21:22] nbarclay- But I would advise against placing bets on our researching Chivalry ourselves rather than buying it.
[21:22] BigFree- with the deficit being for that turn, not what is in the treasury
[21:23] BigFree- so you will buy from GoW?
[21:23] nbarclay- Right. Build up a reserve and then research at a deficit. That provides a little more flexibility.
[21:24] nbarclay- I won't say more than that the possibility of our buying it from GoW does exist.
[21:24] E_T- true, except you have to keep all of those people happy, too
[21:24] BigFree- It does, it worke nicely in Civ3
[21:24] nbarclay- Keeping track of where the luxury slider will have to be set is definitely part of the process.
[21:25] E_T- well, we can try to help you with that part
[21:25] nbarclay- For the right price?

[21:25] E_T- one thing that we are curious about, is what your intentions towards Vox will be
[21:26] E_T- we have heard that they are trying to talk pease with you
[21:27] E_T- and we know that they will likely not be able to repeate themselves for a very long time
[21:27] BigFree- ahh, finish them off.
[21:27] E_T- if ever
[21:27] BigFree- send them to Trp Land
[21:27] BigFree- *Trip
[21:27] * E_T sets mode: -m
[21:27] nbarclay- With the current tone on the GS discussion boards, if Vox survives, it is unlikely to be on our continent. I hope that won't upset RP too much.
[21:28] E_T- they have been good business partners of ours
[21:28] BigFree- we will be bummed about losing a trade partner, but you guys seem like you could fill in where they will leave off.
[21:29] nbarclay- And they used the proceeds of their sales to you to attack us, forcing us to waste the better part of our GA to build up our military instead of for economic investment.
[21:29] E_T- they have been good when it comes to trade talks and have given on a few things when we have asked
[21:29] E_T- Yes, and we are sorry about that
[21:30] E_T- we had worked out deals with them sometime in advance of the war and didn't see this comming
[21:30] nbarclay- The real problem, though, is that after their earlier treachery, what could they say that would assure us they won't try it again if an opportunity arises?
[21:31] E_T- Part of our talks were ongoing when they first had established that city on our contenant, in old Luxia
[21:31] * MSS_BRB has joined #PTWTalks
[21:31] E_T- the fact that you wooped their asses
[21:31] * MSS_BRB is now known as MSS
[21:31] * E_T sets mode: +o MSS
[21:31] MSS- Hey folks..
[21:32] E_T- Hey MSS, long time, no see
[21:32] nbarclay- Did victory in World War I prevent Germany from starting the European part of WWII?
[21:32] MSS- please continue
[21:32] E_T- no, but it was a different situation
[21:32] * MSS waves at E_T
[21:32] * E_T waves back at MSS
[21:33] nbarclay- Hi MSS.
[21:33] MSS- What is the general point of discussion?
[21:33] E_T- trades
[21:33] MSS- Hey NB
[21:33] nbarclay- The big thing RP wanted to talk about is the possibility of trading luxuries to us.
[21:33] * MSS nods
[21:33] MSS- what are our options
[21:33] BigFree- Lets try not to compare real world war issues to Civ 3, they are different in more respects than not.
[21:34] nbarclay- They have two hooked up and are trying to find out whether they can get enough from us to make it worth making hooking up the other two a high priority.
[21:34] MSS- it does confuse an issus
[21:34] E_T- not only that, but to help open lines of communications, so that the little thing that happened in the public forum doesn't happen again
[21:34] nbarclay- I'll grant that real world and Civ 3 can be very different, but Vox could provide a ready-made ally if someone else wants to attack us.
[21:35] BigFree- true
[21:35] E_T- very much so
[21:35] BigFree- who's be dumb enough for that though
[21:35] MSS- Are we arguing for peace with Vox and allowing them to share our contenent?
[21:35] BigFree- *who'd
[21:35] E_T- the one that we really have our eye on is lego
[21:35] BigFree- yes
[21:36] E_T- they even have it set in the CoL not to trade their map
[21:36] * MSS nods at legothrea=t
[21:36] BigFree- Lego is prolly just laughing their asses off
[21:36] BigFree- They are build happy right now
[21:36] MSS- they are in a position of power
[21:36] nbarclay- RP asked what our intentions were toward Vox and I told them that if Vox survives, it's unlikely to be on our continent.
[21:36] MSS- Manifest Destiny
[21:36] nbarclay- (I figure they'll find out sooner or later, if only when it happens.

)
[21:36] E_T- they are more than likely helping to keep the war going, AKAIK
[21:37] MSS- They brought it on...
[21:37] MSS- Lego helping Vox?-
[21:37] nbarclay- Who brought it on?
[21:37] MSS- Vox
[21:37] E_T- we have word from GoW (they want to sell us their map) is that Legoland is very large
[21:37] MSS- they unleashed us, the only way we can be pacified is with our contenent
[21:38] MSS- pacified is teh wron word...
[21:38] MSS- appeased is better
[21:38] nbarclay- Aeson's run calculations on how many tiles there "should" be that we can't see, and those bear out the idea that Legoland is a big place.
[21:38] BigFree- GS will be content with the continent
[21:38] MSS- and that frightens me....
[21:39] MSS- BF.. Yes
[21:39] E_T- it also frightens us
[21:39] BigFree- Lego is huge, no doubt, Im hoping for a lot of dester and Mountains
[21:39] BigFree- *desert
[21:39] BigFree- with jungle thrown in for measure
[21:39] BigFree-

[21:40] E_T- which is one reason that we are worried about losing a good trading parter with lux and not having one to fill the void, so to speak
[21:40] E_T- Lego go quite a sum from us a while back and they have been skinflints for anything else
[21:40] nbarclay- We're definitely interested in trading if the terms are fair.
[21:41] BigFree- so are we
[21:41] E_T- not lux, vox
[21:41] E_T- same fate, wrong civ
[21:41] nbarclay- Now if we can just agree on "fair".

[21:41] MSS- Cant we go lux for lux for now?
[21:41] BigFree- lets see if we can get some proposals sent back and forth
[21:42] MSS- That sounds good
[21:42] E_T- with the way that GoW had underpricesd the tech market, we really are trying to still figure the difinition of fair
[21:42] nbarclay- MSS, we don't have a harbor yet, and at the moment, trading two of our luxuries for two of RP's won't help our luxury slider setting. So while I like the idea, it's not worth making a harbor a higher priority for.
[21:42] BigFree- No kidding
[21:43] MSS- gotcha NB
[21:43] nbarclay- (We're working on a harbor, but it's not exactly in one of our most productive cities.)
[21:43] BigFree- we understand
[21:43] E_T- plus we will need your map, as the pathfinder routine need to "see" your harbor to get the trade initiated (from us to you)
[21:43] MSS- So we are looking at cementing a deal in the neax 5-10 turns?
[21:44] BigFree- just thro a couple of captured Voxian workers in there, drop to Desops then rush them bastards to death!

[21:44] MSS- SICK
[21:44] MSS- hell were relgious
[21:44] BigFree-

[21:44] E_T- we are still working on getting stuff connected up,. but if we don't have customers, then it's not a priority
[21:44] BigFree- a catch 22
[21:44] E_T- if we do have potential customers, then it does become a priority
[21:45] MSS- What is a reasonable non-prioty time frame?
[21:45] BigFree- we will get them hooked up at a reasonable rate anyhow, cause we know GS want to do a deal at aome point in the near fuutre.
[21:45] E_T- MSS, we are also Non-Industrious and we have mointains that we are still crossing
[21:46] MSS- and our harbor? care to divulge et of compleat
[21:46] * MSS nods at E_T
[21:46] nbarclay- Do both sides need to see the trade route, or just one?
[21:47] BigFree- I though only one, but i guess I could be wrong
[21:47] E_T- If We through enough workers at this, it will still be atleast 8 turns to connect (travel time included)
[21:47] MSS- Just one that I know of. Both need harbors. Kind of like trading maps befor Map Making
[21:47] BigFree- right
[21:47] BigFree- thta' the way I looked at it
[21:47] MSS- so we have 10 turns to work this out in detail
[21:47] BigFree- sounds fair
[21:47] E_T- but we can have more than 2 luxes likely within 20 to 30 turns
[21:48] E_T- You likely have our map, so you know what we have available in luxes
[21:48] nbarclay- You're figuring 20-30 turns as the fastest you'd reasonably be able to hook up the remaining luxuries?
[21:48] BigFree- or sooner depending on what is offered for them
[21:48] MSS- We can cross tose bridges then. Assuming that we have no other source, we would love to trade
[21:49] MSS- NB, how many luxes do we need to make a change in Lux slider?
[21:49] BigFree- our workers have other priorities right now
[21:49] E_T- at first cut, but we can see what else we can do to speed things up
[21:49] E_T- like more than 3 workers on a flat tile will still only use 3 workers to road it
[21:50] E_T- and then you have to wait for the next tile to get roaded before you can move to the next
[21:50] nbarclay- It sounds like the additional luxuries wouldn't come into play until after our GA and the war with Vox are over. I don't know what the picture will be then; Aeson very possibly might if he's kept track from his earlier tests.
[21:50] nbarclay- (That is, beyond the first two.)
[21:51] E_T- but we should have 2 within 12 turns, the others, depends on what they are pulled from to get there
[21:51] MSS- gotcha.... so it sounds like GS has some homework to do.
[21:51] BigFree- ok, just let us know how important it i to you and how fat you'd need them.
[21:51] nbarclay- In theory, a six-worker crew could use a leapfrog approach to advance one tile per turn. But in practice, the cost of that would probably be prohibitive.
[21:52] E_T- especiall in workers
[21:52] nbarclay- In workers, and in what else could be built instead of workers.
[21:53] E_T- which we are still trying to gather..... we are geting there, but sometimes roleplaying has it's disadvanteges
[21:53] BigFree- yes, with the 6 worker, 3 are idle each turn
[21:53] nbarclay- No. Three are not idle.
[21:53] E_T- I know what he's talking about
[21:53] nbarclay- Three road, and then the other three move over the road.
[21:53] MSS- We might be able to help with that (workers), I will check in with the team.
[21:53] BigFree- oh, I was still thinking about the mountains
[21:54] MSS- Mountains take time....
[21:54] E_T- part of our problem had been terrain, lots of mountains and hills
[21:54] nbarclay- Would RP be willing to allow GS workers with pike escorts onto your lands to help with the connection, if GS is interested?
[21:54] E_T- like the silks are in jungles....
[21:54] MSS- Good for production if you have the food...
[21:55] E_T- That is something that we can't answer right nos
[21:55] nbarclay- It's just an idea I came up with; I'm not sure how good or practical it would be.
[21:55] E_T- *now
[21:55] MSS- That way we get the industrial trat working for us....
[21:55] MSS- Us= RP+GS
[21:56] E_T- and that would likely have to be discussed and polled on, but I really don't think that the team would go for it
[21:56] E_T- we will present it to them and we can see
[21:56] nbarclay- Understood. I'm not sure whether we could spare the galleys soon enough to make it practical either.
[21:56] E_T- as you said, it is an idea that we can explore
[21:57] BigFree- it's possible, but the rest of the team doesn't like the idea of inving people over to as of yet, unsettled lands.
[21:57] E_T- more than likely, the timeing would not be favorable, as buy the time that you got them here and such, we would likely be almost finished
[21:58] BigFree- true
[21:58] MSS- nod, a worker dal would need to be decided in the next turn or two to mak it worthwhile., But those other two luxes hook-up would benefit greatly
[21:59] E_T- it would actually be faster for you to sell them to us, as being industial "slaves", they should work just as fast as our regular ones
[22:00] BigFree- pssibly, we'll ask the team
[22:00] BigFree- hmm
[22:00] BigFree- never thought about that
[22:00] E_T- and then as part of the deal, when we are done with connecting them, we trade them back
[22:00] E_T- but IIRC, we still need that harbor/map
[22:00] BigFree- a very novel idea
[22:00] nbarclay- The speed of slaves is based on the buying civ's traits, not the selling civ's traits.
[22:01] BigFree- yep, you are right
[22:01] E_T- I tried to do that in one of my PBEM's and couldn't without those 2 things
[22:01] nbarclay- It would be rather more than two turns before we'd have galleys to spare.
[22:01] MSS- Hey this is good stuff and I am glad we are talking. My folks are in from NYC, so Ishould go and spend some time with them.
[22:01] BigFree- LOL
[22:01] BigFree- we are your family damn it
[22:02] E_T-

[22:02] E_T- GS and RP needs to talk more often
[22:02] nbarclay- Civs have to have cities on the same continent to trade workers.
[22:02] MSS- hehe
[22:03] E_T- we had almost the same kind of problem with GoW and then we talked it out and are good neighbors
[22:03] MSS- Well my parents are cooing over my new son. Take care. Chat at ypu all latter....
[22:03] BigFree- adios
[22:03] nbarclay- Bye.
[22:03] BigFree- take care
[22:03] MSS- parting is syuch....
[22:03] E_T- Hmmm, maybe we can get Vox to "gift" us one of their cities
[22:04] BigFree- LOL
[22:04] MSS- TWISTED E_T......
[22:04] E_T- Yes I am....
[22:04] E_T-

[22:04] MSS- bye
[22:04] * MSS has left #PTWTalks
[22:04] E_T- later
[22:05] E_T- let MSS know that Congrats on his son
[22:05] nbarclay- If he reads the log, you just did.

[22:06] E_T- 4 oh, a quick reminder, when you post this log in your forum, make sure that you edit any ISDG things that can be construed as a sensitive nature
[22:07] BigFree- any other concerns or questions from GS?
[22:07] nbarclay- Will do.
[22:07] E_T- ty
[22:08] nbarclay- I just looked at the map, and with where most of the luxuries that need hooked up seem to be, I don't think the idea of our bringing over workers is going to be viable enough to be worth asking your team about.
[22:08] E_T- I thing we are done, my ass is a peice of lead now.....
[22:08] E_T- that's what I though, too
[22:08] BigFree- ok nathan
[22:09] nbarclay- I can't think of anything else that needs discussed. I do very definitely like the direction relations between our teams seem to be going now.
[22:09] BigFree- as do we.

[22:09] E_T- same here
[22:09] BigFree- maybe we had the wrong people talking before
[22:09] BigFree- edit that out though :P
[22:09] nbarclay- Or the wrong people not talking?

[22:09] BigFree- LOL
[22:09] E_T- Trip could have been in on a historic event, but he couldn't keep his mouth shut
[22:10] BigFree- HAHA
[22:10] E_T- so much for a passive observer
[22:10] nbarclay- So shall we sign off now?
[22:11] BigFree- sure, this cahnne is permanent now, so any time you can drtop by is fine
[22:11] E_T- history is full of the wrong people talking or not talking at the wrong times
[22:11] BigFree- have you choose to log this nathan?
[22:12] BigFree- do we need to send you a copy?
[22:12] E_T- do you need us to send you a log?
[22:12] E_T- crosspost
[22:13] nbarclay- What I normally do is copy and paste from the screen buffer, so I don't have to set up logging in advance. Actually, I haven't even figured out how to on the program I use (IceChat).
[22:13] BigFree- we will send you a copy, it is much easier that way
[22:14] nbarclay- Okay, thanks.
[22:14] BigFree- try getting mIRC
[22:14] BigFree- just give me your addy
[22:14] E_T- we'll send you a long, I still have you e-mail addy, you just need to edit out the ISDG stuff and we'll be o.k.
[22:14] nbarclay- As I recall, you're supposed to pay for mIRC if you use it for any length of time. IceChat is completely free.
[22:14] nbarclay- Will do. Thanks.
[22:15] E_T- You can register it, but.....
[22:15] E_T-

[22:15] BigFree- ok then, goodnight
[22:15] nbarclay- I feel better about using a program that's truly free, and IceChat works well enough.
[22:15] E_T- nbarclay(AT)hiwaay.net
[22:15] nbarclay- Thanks for a nice chat.
[22:15] E_T- right?
[22:16] nbarclay- Right.
[22:16] BigFree-

[22:16] BigFree- adios
[22:16] E_T- later
[22:16] nbarclay- Bye.
[22:16] * nbarclay has quit IRC (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net)

**BigFree** · June 9, 2003, 02:09

SUMMARY/POINTS OF INTERST

1. GS has no harbors.

2. GS likely has few marketplaces. (luxes make little difference to happiness for them)

3. GS does not desire peace with Vox. (for most of the team)

4. GS wants to trade luxes evenly for the two that they have, but is reluctant to give us tech for our other two luxes. (they also noted that other Civ's on bob could have same luxes as us; ND has spices, but only one diamond, though not yet in their territory)

5. GS is not currently researching anything (even at the 40 turn pace), but will likely start to research soon. They left open the possibility that they will buy Chivalry from GoW. It sounded as if they would do that.

6. They are really pissed at Vox for screwing up their GA.

7. Vox sold it's map of Bob to GS, then declared war on GS soon after.

8. We may get a map trade in the future, but it is in the air for right now.

9. GS wants for us to be their allies; they see us as being able to be stronger than them in the long run.

10. GS is worried about a potential Civ or two joining with Vox right now, GS feels they are vulnerable to that sort of thing tight now. (could be a bluff though)

11. GS is worried about Lego in the future and highly suspects Lego of giving Gold to Vox. (

)

I can't think of anything else right now. If you have any questions, please start a thread in the forum with a link to this thread and I or ET will try to answer them.

EDIT: Thanks for your help ET!

**E_T** · June 9, 2003, 02:09

We had Invited Trip as an Observer to History in action, but he wanted to be an a**, so we moderated the room and made him shut up, he left.... So much for silent Opbservation.....

Several things interesting from these two chats, but I get up for work in 4 1/2 hours, so I'll try to post back about it tomorrow, if BF doesn't got to it first.

E_T

**E_T** · June 9, 2003, 02:16

Too tired, fixed it now...

E_T

**BigFree** · June 10, 2003, 01:38

PM to ZargonX of Lego

Hey ZargonX

Referencing our chat; Role Play offers to trade Iron to Vox while Lego gives Role Play Theology now and Chivarly on the turn it is available to Lego.

BigFree

Announcement

Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

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