Why is not useful to improve more tiles around Madrid

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by E_T
I suggest that Pamplona build a Temple first, then a Worker, then possibly a Granary, then start alternating Settlers & Workers. For now, Madrid can be the Military Center & other Worker Center, while Pamplona can be the Settler & Worker Station.

I like to try to have a Worker force that is 1.5 to 2 times the number of Cities that I have.

E_T

My plan was to make Madrid a settler factory until the new city can take over with those duties. We need to MAD REX in the very initial stages... which means building spearmen and settlers, probably shirking on workers for at least a little at first.

That is unless we're going to argue that the nature of a multiplayer game makes it critical for us to build more improvements or military and less settlers this early. Personally, I think not, as the VERY early game is the perfect time to uber-REX rather than build workers and spearmen because we won't get another chance before the risk of war sets in.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
I do not agree. Settlers first, if we can do it.
Hmm... Temples takes more time, someone do the math?

Remember that we are religious. Temples cost half for us. Plus we really need the second cattle to convert Pamplona in a real settler factory, and this second cow will only be available for us through culture expansion.

Last but not least, we must take profit of our culture characteristics. This means being religious and building temples.

[OliverFA]

Señor Arnelos, your plan makes sense to me. Probably it is true that in multiplayer we must be more careful at the REX phase, but this only means that we must do REX when we can. There is no point in building two or threee cities when our oponents are going to have six or seven.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by oliverfa


Remember that we are religious. Temples cost half for us. Plus we really need the second cattle to convert Pamplona in a real settler factory, and this second cow will only be available for us through culture expansion.

Last but not least, we must take profit of our culture characteristics. This means being religious and building temples.

I agree with the temple for the same reasons, but notice that if the city is settled on the non shielded tile, the second cow is available from the beginning.

[GodKing]

Temple - baaaaaaaa

We need to REX and build units for WAR.

None of our cities should be above size 3-4 at this stage.

[pikesfan]

Won’t pop rushing the temple cancel out the temple’s benefits? Doesn’t pop rushing result in someone being permanently unhappy (or unhappy for a very long time)?

[OliverFA]

Pop rushing results in unhapiness during 20 turns. The point is to see if the time saved justifies it or not. At the moment i'm not sure of one thing or another.

[astrologix]

As Chief Architect, I think a Temple is a good idea for Pamplona. While this is in progress, the the city will grow and reach an optimum size for producing settlers better and faster. On the other hand, with a first temple our culture will grow faster. Remember that a temple will double the culture output of the city 500 years after this is built.

[Arnelos]

A temple??? I agree with GodKing's statement (I think in another thread) that it's a bit early for temples. We don't NEED a temple until a city reaches pop 4 (assuming you station a unit it in once it reaches pop 3), so why build a temple so early (unles you REALLY NEED that border expansion).

I'm thinking that spearmen (for now), barracks (if we get warrior code), city walls (if we get masonry), or even a worker might be better. Ultimately, this new city is going to have to be a settler factory for a while, so spearmen and settlers are likely the bulk of what it will build for some time to come.

[astrologix]

For Spain, a temple will cost only 30 shields. IIRC, if our citizens do work first the cow tile, Pamplona will have a temple in only 10 turns and the borders will grow 5 turns later. Our culture counter will start growing, more than the other civs will do. At turn 10 we'll have a 2 pop city and the queue could be set to spearman and later, with a 3 pop city, set to settler.

I think that Madrid should build barracks before than Pamplona and become a military units production city instead a settler factory.

[OliverFA]

Good point señor Astrologix. The reason because building a temple in Pamplona is an option (a really good option in my opinion) is because it costs only 30 shields for us. We will never catch the industrious civs in worker production or, if we do, it will be at a very high cost. Let's take advantage of our strong points.

I also agree that Madrid should build barracks before Pamplona, but I'm not sure when it should be done. Anyway, I think that whenever this happens, Madrid would stop building settlers/workers, meanwhile Pamplona would continue doing that.

[Arnelos]

Ok, I can see that a temple would be useful for expanding hte borders of the new city... the question is whether it's worth 30 shields of production to gain that small bump in production from the cows. The temple will eventually be built, the question is the timing. How much will it speed up the new city as a settler factory for it to have the temple and thus access to more land for its 1-3 population (while performing the role of a settler factory)?

If the production gained over early REXing is worth more than the 30 shields that have to be spent on the temple, I'm for it. If we don't recoop the 30 shields until quite a bit later, I'm against it. Pretty simple. Perhaps someone should look at this more closely (I don't feel like doing that at the moment )

As for Madrid, my eventual plan is for Madrid to be a military unit and improvement factory, not a settler factory. That said, it HAS to initially be a settler factory if we are to REX up to an advantageous size. It seems that we have hte advantage of Neu Demogyptica being our own close neighbor and for them to be surrounded by other (and more hostile) opponents, giving us a good measure of additional security due to the luck of geographical relationships. We should take advantage of this and REX like mad for as long as we can get away with it. That won't be too long, as we'll need to transition Madrid (at least) to a military factory in the not-too-distant future, but at least for a time we can just pure REX.

[astrologix]

Arnelos,

REX is very important, I know it. But Pamplona will be a particular city, because it has two cows tiles. So, we must use this advantage to boost his production. If we make the city grow to 3 pop, and then we do build a settler, we do waste the possibility of using the two cows permanently. The minimum pop of this city must be 2. This means that we only should create a settler when the city reaches (or is reaching) the 4 pop. We must increase the city growth capacity by irrigating the two cow tiles ASAP.

If we wait until that happens (the 4 pop) we'll have the time to create a temple, which will have two functions : increasing our culture and our borders, and prevent the city to be in disorder when it reaches the 4 pop.

If we give the 4 --> 2 --> 4 -->2 pop rythmus to this city, we could build settlers every 5-6 turns, or even less if the two cows tiles are irrigated.

I hope now I've exposed this idea more clearly.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by astrologix
Arnelos,

REX is very important, I know it. But Pamplona will be a particular city, because it has two cows tiles. So, we must use this advantage to boost his production. If we make the city grow to 3 pop, and then we do build a settler, we do waste the possibility of using the two cows permanently. The minimum pop of this city must be 2. This means that we only should create a settler when the city reaches (or is reaching) the 4 pop. We must increase the city growth capacity by irrigating the two cow tiles ASAP.

If we wait until that happens (the 4 pop) we'll have the time to create a temple, which will have two functions : increasing our culture and our borders, and prevent the city to be in disorder when it reaches the 4 pop.

If we give the 4 --> 2 --> 4 -->2 pop rythmus to this city, we could build settlers every 5-6 turns, or even less if the two cows tiles are irrigated.

I hope now I've exposed this idea more clearly.

You have, very good explanation.

[ruby_maser]

I'm going to set up a scenario this weekend to explore options for Pamplona. I have not made a final decision as to the location of the city in truth, and someone left that to me I am leaning towards the bonus grassland though for the location.

But I am open to pop-rushing or short-rushing at this early stage. A short-rush could be useful if a full pop-rush for a temple would kill off too many citizens, but I will work out the details in the scenario. I just have to build the darn thing first