Strategy : The end of the Archers Rush

[pikesfan]

Silly question, but what's REX? Something Expansion?

[Arnelos]

Rapid EXpansion

no problem

[DAVOUT]

Against the AI, the REX was comfortable since it was sure that the AI will not attack before all the land available was settled. Against humans, this is no longer guaranteed, and consequently all players will make a more conservative initial expansion. If they dont, they will be rushed by aggressive neighbours. So the argument that an early rush slow down the REX has not the same strenth than against the AI.
Also, the fact that we dont find for ourself the warrior rush a reasonnable strategy does not means that another team will not adopt it; my point, although it could appear ridiculous, is just that we anticipate a situation we could have to face.

[Arnelos]

The Archiapelago Possibility...

btw... interesting possibility...

I just played another game as Spain trying to use the same settings as would exist for the actual game here... and picking random landmass meant that I got an archiapelago this time...

Spain started on a lonely island and there was no threat from other civs until I finally got map making and found a rather sizable island to my east with both the Persians and the Ottomans. Then I found the Egyptians on their own tiny island to my west and two empty islands strung out to my south. By the time Egypt, Persia, and the Ottomans had galleys, I had already had plenty of time to build up a stable island defense as well as a workable naval defefense of many galleys (also used for suicide exploration missions). On one lucky suicide mission south, I found another island (this one with the Iroquios off by themselves). Some time after the Middle Age had just started the Iroquois either discovered or were discovered by Carthage and China (which were on one large island together and had both colonized a second smaller island as well).

I won't belabor you all with the rest of the game, but we should keep this possibility in mind:

If we are on an archiapelago map, nearly everyone will be on an island all to themselves... getting map making and being the first to contact multiple other civs (and use the ability in multiplayer to hide the full extent of the cards you bring to the table) would give someone an ENORMOUS early trading advantage.

Island defense is a bit different from land-based defense and naval forces will be rather key (even if it only means hordes of galleys).

The most strategic thing on such a map is the claiming of islands upon which no civ starts the game and getting enough troops there to ensure that no-one disputes your claim (and having a large enough navy to sink any galleys that might threaten it).

[jdjdjd]

The point, I think, is not that we need to consider the rush for ourselves. It is that we may be next to a neighbor who may consider it. So that we need our REX to be moderated enough by allowing for proper defenses. But, not just that, we need to also start off building an offensive force, that stays near our core.

One point, while using archers for exploring would be great, I advise against it, for one fact, we don't want them to far from home. Its one thing to send out warriors to explore, but those archers need to be available for attack, or counterattack should some civ be stupid enough to start an early war against us.

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Also, the fact that we dont find for ourself the warrior rush a reasonnable strategy does not means that another team will not adopt it; my point, although it could appear ridiculous, is just that we anticipate a situation we could have to face.

I would hope that other teams are sensible enough to realize it is not in their best interests to try it, but you are right. Someone could be rash enough to do so. But, as Godking pointed out, the threat of such a rush will probably only be felt by one city. I think it is a chance we should be willing to take in order to secure as much land as possible quickly. If contact is made with a potentially-aggressive civ, we can always reinforce the city where contact was made. Since it is the only one they will know of, it is the only one in threat at that time. That way, we can stagger defense upgrades to have a minimal impact on our expansion.

On the subject of archipelagoes, I would be happy to see us get this. I always liked the concept of choke points and the necessity of a navy on these types of landmasses. It would probably allow for a less conservative open game, might be slow diplomatically for a while, but the landmasses themselves provide a good buffer against early wars.

[DAVOUT]

So, may I summarize as this : we are prepared to slightly slow down our REX in order to allocate more resources to defence (walls, defence and offense units), in the case where potentially dangerous civ would be contacted in the very early game.

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
So, may I summarize as this : we are prepared to slightly slow down our REX in order to allocate more resources to defence (walls, defence and offense units), in the case where potentially dangerous civ would be contacted in the very early game.

I'm for it as long as it is only slightly because I think everyone else is prepared to be somewhat cautious. I will say for the record, though, that I think the group that strikes the balance will succeed.

However, I will state again that I would hope we choose hills to build on whenever possible to add free defense to our cities. I think we should also consider pop-rushing or short-rushing on a limited basis or as a last resort. Anything to minimize the impact this paranoia; it has the potential to hold us back.

That said, I trust our leadership will strike that ever-illusive balance

[DAVOUT]

Lets quantify : slighty means one settler replaced by units and walls.
Regarding hills, I agree except when they compete with river tiles.
As for pop rushing, I really dislike it. The happiness is a productive tool.

[Thrumble]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
If a civ able to build archers at the start is choosen by a team, and if it is near us, we have to find a solution. Do you know what civ are concerned ?

Anyone with Warrior Code, I'm pretty sure we can expect the Glory of War to have a civ that can build Archers from the get go. They seem to be promoting a mercenary stance though so we might be able to buy them off.

Other teams are playing Egyptians, Ottomans, and what else? I don't think they start out with Warrior Code..

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Lets quantify : slighty means one settler replaced by units and walls.
Regarding hills, I agree except when they compete with river tiles.
As for pop rushing, I really dislike it. The happiness is a productive tool.

I wouldn't know what "slightly" means until that situation comes up. Perhaps, instead of substituting a settler with offensive units, it would be enough to have one city max out on production and generate spears and then offensive units until everyone is satisfied we are generally safe. Overlapping city borders or huddling a core of cities around a productive flood plain might work to increase productivity while decreasing the initial empire size and make it, thus, more defendable. I hope that this fertile group of minds can come up with options besides slowing REX.

As to hills vs. rivers, I agree that rivers should win out. We could then forego aqueducts, and with strategic placement, we can still reap a 25% defensive bonus for a city by locating it on the protected side of a river (our side vs. the side closer to our enemies).

When it comes to pop-rushing, I would only be talking about a very limited amount. Very early on, when the size is generally small and maybe with access to a luxury, the 20-turn unhappiness is manageable. I would never suggest more than one pop-rush or short-rush for a single city or that all cities should do it. If we have a location with good food production though, we maybe should consider utilizing the advantage of those extra population points early on, ironically, by killing off one or two in order to speed growth or even defense.

[DAVOUT]

Interesting reading (a Sir Ralph Strategy Thread) :

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1486846#post1486846