Should we offer Iron to Vox?

[BigFree]

Those of you opposed to giving Iron to Vox are saying:

Then: Vox is our ally.
Now: Vox is in trouble, they are no longer our ally.

We can't have it both ways gentlemen. The more we help Vox now, the more we help ourselves in the future. Can we really expect any other Nation to believe us if we promise to ally with them at a later date after we turn our backs on Vox now?

[E_T]

I say no (although I have NOT voted yet) for several reasons:

1) It will require losing one of our few and precious workers to have access NOW.

2) what if we need to sell/trade it to GoW when ND desides to have at them?

3) what if our current source moves?

I see no reason to help Vox when they have made several mistakes in this whole affair. We have an opertunity to become freinds with GS, let's not possibly spoil it.

E_T

[BigFree]

GS doesn't want to be our friends, don't mistake their talk for meaning that. We WILL be their next target, no matter what. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind. Look at their statements and the facts. WE have many more land tiles than they do, if they don't do something fairly soon about us, we will be to strong for them do anything about.

[mrmitchell]

DUH...the goal of the people who want to make friends with GS is to delay Total War, not stop it. We're everyone's target, because we are the biggest guys, we seem (only seem, I hope!) like fun guys who wouldn't notice Godzilla charging our ass, and we're much more nearby than Lego. The only Q is when we are their target.

It is foolish to hope that a Civ might at least want to piggyback off our success and ally with us, especially in the long run.

"Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best."

[Hot Mustard]

BigFree, Vox is not our ally!

We have good relations, have done some trades, and have an arranged trade in the works, which may or may not ever see completion. No one can blame us for not following through with it either.

[BigFree]

dejon, we have told Vox that we would be there, we have told them that we will commit a certain amount of units toward the war against GS, we have told them that we would like to see the complete destruction of GS. We have various trades, past, present and likely furture (if we give them Iron) that will come to reprepresent our relationship with Vox.

This is our one chance to indirectly control the strength/growth of GS. Giving Vox Iron is not directly declaring war on GS; but if GS decalrs war on us, do you think that GS can support a war against a re-Ironed Vox and RP and GoW with the added gold that Lego is giving? The answer is no. If we pass this chance up and GS takes over Vox, we stand to face both GS and ND at a later date. I'd rather just have to worry about ND and keep GS out of it.

Where in this description does it not sound like we have allied with them?

The rest of the world would certainly 'blame' us for withdrawing support after we had so ardently stated that we would. For us to back out when things seem to be a little rough makes us look bad. I am one to keep my word, there is something to be said about that. Spain's policy should be the same; Spain's word should be gold.

[astrologix]

BigFree, I totally agree

[E_T]

We have done business with them, not gotten into bed with then (yet). Big differences there.

E_T

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by BigFree
dejon, we have told Vox that we would be there, we have told them that we will commit a certain amount of units toward the war against GS, we have told them that we would like to see the complete destruction of GS. We have various trades, past, present and likely furture (if we give them Iron) that will come to reprepresent our relationship with Vox.

This is our one chance to indirectly control the strength/growth of GS. Giving Vox Iron is not directly declaring war on GS; but if GS decalrs war on us, do you think that GS can support a war against a re-Ironed Vox and RP and GoW with the added gold that Lego is giving? The answer is no. If we pass this chance up and GS takes over Vox, we stand to face both GS and ND at a later date. I'd rather just have to worry about ND and keep GS out of it.

Where in this description does it not sound like we have allied with them?

The rest of the world would certainly 'blame' us for withdrawing support after we had so ardently stated that we would. For us to back out when things seem to be a little rough makes us look bad. I am one to keep my word, there is something to be said about that. Spain's policy should be the same; Spain's word should be gold.

The majority of what you refer to is just your diplomatic discussions. Spain has not agreed to become a their ally, nor to support them in any fashion, other than the Engineering trade. I care little what your talks sound like. I only care about what has been agreed to by all of Spain, and ratified by both parties. The world can not take issue for us not doing something we never officially agreed to. Nor can they take issue with the team not feeling obliged to act on the opinions and ideas of one member.

You have said before that you have the backing of the King in your talks, but it seems to me that FAM authority means you have the freedom to try to get what the team wants via diplomacy, not to decide what the team wants.

[Aidun]

I have not yet voted, and I won't do so until we have talked more on IRC with leaders of GS.

I am slightly in favor of BigFrees plan in this last post above this one, but I also would like to see us becoming friends with GS.

There is no reason to choose for one option or the other, but if we choose for both, we have to make sure we keep it secret and both Vox keep it secret, especially to each other.

Aidun

[Nuclear Winter]

Gentlemen... It seems to me we are forgetting our objectives into joining this war... Maybe part of this is my mistake, since I started the conversations as for aiding Vox and I believe I haven´t explained myself very much.
First point of joining the weakest side is for balancing things and getting this war to advance into a full war between Vox and GS, one that can keep ´em both busy destroying each other, loosing land improvements and sealing their fate in the process for a major defeat to other teams.
Second, was to obtain any profit we could from this war, though this is a second issue. A greater profit is already being achieved by cutting 2 teams from advance (wars are a MAJOR drawback to any economy, specially long, almost stalemated ones).
Third point is, GS has ALREADY stated that they have us as a likely next target. They have said that even if they conquer the whole ´´Estonia´´ they will not have ´´as much land as RP´´ in their own words. If this is not a demonstration of interest, then I do not know what is one. Besides, GS has shown no sign that they want to stablish good relations with us.It is to our greatest interest keeping both teams at war. And I must remind you folks war is all but decided in ´´Estonia´´ and that they have NO condition of starting an invasion on us prior to the full conquest of Vox and consequent rebuilding of their land. They may scream about invasions and threaten us and all around but they know they cannot start such a war against us and sucessfully invade us. And we can still build our navy and break any possible blockade agains t us. Also, imagine a combined effort by our navy, GoW´s navy and Vox´s navy against a possible blockade against us. Even though those 3 mentioned navies are very small it is to say the least unlikely GS´s navy is great enough so as to keep a blockade agaisnt our port against a combined effort of those 3 sides.And don´t forget that even 2 turns of iron could allow Vox to start building pikemen, and to upgrade many spearmen. Also, in an emergencial situation I believe game mechanics can allow us to use GoW´s ports if we build a road toward them (their capital).
So I say yes, let us do anything in hand to cause turmoil and caos at their land, while rexing and house cleaning things here.

[ruby_maser]

It seems the biggest difference of opinion seems to center around whether we are GS's next target. With people saying we are a target regardless because of our proximity to them and selling iron to Vox is our best bet for keeping them occupied for the time being.

With the number of galleys they have and the Great Lighthouse, it seems to me that selling iron to Vox is the best way to see their troops on our shores the soonest.

[History Guy]

If we speak, we are condemned.

If we do nothing, we are damned.

It seems either way, Senor Libre, we'll be fighting these monkeys. This is a most distressing case. We need to be concerned, as Marshal Dejon says, on settling the rest of our lands and on building our army. Nothing else should be in the way of that, because we know that someone is going to come looking for us in a matter of time. Will it be the Arabs with their Ansars, the Egyptians, or both in an alliance?

We stand at the void. Shall we merely look down into the blackness and pass on, or shall we totter and fall?

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

[GodKing]

If we give iron, we know we are the next target (they will declair war now to cause the blockaid) and will plan on invading us once they are done with Vox. So, by giving Vox iron, they will not get it because of the blockade.

If we do not give Vox Iron, they will die, but it will be long and bloody.

Is this the way things are? Admittadly, I have not looked at a map recently, so I don't know how many ports each of us have and if a blockaid will work or not (I do know that it has been threatened).

If we do give iron, there are two courses we must take. First, to assure that a blockaid doesn't occur, we can also give GS a lux (a gift - that way, if they declair war on us to effect the blockaid, they loose the lux). Second, we plan on an invasion from them, and beat them to the punch by sneak attacking them. If we capture any cities of theirs, we gift them to Vox or burn them down. Our objective is not to capture territory, but to eliminate the ability of the enemy to make war. We must act from now on that a state of war exists, even if it is not declaired.

A point of concern. We have two rivals to our north. They will be getting their UU's very shortly. How much do you trust them?

Ghost of GK

[BigFree]

Originally posted by dejon


The majority of what you refer to is just your diplomatic discussions. Spain has not agreed to become a their ally, nor to support them in any fashion, other than the Engineering trade. I care little what your talks sound like. I only care about what has been agreed to by all of Spain, and ratified by both parties. The world can not take issue for us not doing something we never officially agreed to. Nor can they take issue with the team not feeling obliged to act on the opinions and ideas of one member.

You have said before that you have the backing of the King in your talks, but it seems to me that FAM authority means you have the freedom to try to get what the team wants via diplomacy, not to decide what the team wants.

dejon, I take exception of your attitude towards me. You seem to be saying that I'm acting on my own accord without thought as to what the team wants. I suggest to you that I'm acting in a fashion that you do not agree with.

WE as a team agreed to the deal with Vox to help(ally) in the war with them against GS.

WE as a team agreed to send troops to Estonia as a part of this agreement.

WE as a team agreed that we should coordinate with both GoW and Vox as a means to the ends of bringing destruction to GS.

The accusations you have levied against me are ludicrous. You should be careful about making such statements. Although you may feel that what WE have decided as a team to do is not how you would do things there is no reason to think that I'm conducting my own talks with Vox.

Nor can they take issue with the team not feeling obliged to act on the opinions and ideas of one member.

dejon, WE have agreed to these issues, you may not have, but this team has. I am not some rogue FAM. I am acting upon the wishes of our King and our people. I am sad to see you feel this way. If you think we should change our whole stance on this issue, create a poll, see what the 'people' think. That is what I do.