The Current situation with Vox

[mrmitchell]

Deterrent.

[GodKing]

I disagree.

I think that they are in a stalemate.

Sure, GS looks longingly on our lands. Who (except Lego) doesn't.

But our best strategy is also one that we will never take. We will never start a war. Period. We won't do it. We are a bunch of pansy loving peace kissing do gooders that will stab someone in the back the instant we get the oportunity, but never, ever slap them in the face. That is why we will never give iron to Vox, unless it looks like they will be wiped off the face of the earth and they come begging and pleading to us for it.

No. We should have attacked ND long ago. We should have made Bob ours. Now, ND and GoW will soon be able to attack us, with a GA and their UU.

GS had the ability to invade us, and WE ARE YELLING AT THEM & CALLING THEM NAMES. I don't get it. Trying to make them into enemies.

Just realize, not everybody picks apart anything said for any and all meanings, then assumes the worst of them are what was ment. Sometimes a fart is just a fart - let is stink and go away.

The Dead Guy without a Head

[Thud]

GK, I know I became quite tired of standing around and doing nothing after the Lux war. Obviously, that was a different situation and we truly had no choice in the matter, but I didn't like it, and I wouldn't like it now.

[BigFree]

Thanks for the idea GK.

We can tell the world we gave Iron to Vox out of pity! We didn't want to see them elimenated by GS. And since GS has settled two cities in Vox's land, it very much looks like a GS rout! At least that is the logic we could use to explain why we would giv it to them.

[Togas]

I know, and we all know, that it's bad diplomacy to argue in public, but I'm sick of reading posts about people who seem to think that we are making GS hate us. My posts and the posts of several people on this team in the public forum were in response to their thoughts and statements. No one read anything into those posts, they were giving threats that people should not aid Vox, especially since they went to so much trouble to cut off Vox's iron.

When this was pointed out they backtracked, claimed they weren't threatening, then starting making outrageous attacks on our team, going as far as to accuse us of starting the Vox GS war and other absolutely stupid and innane things.

Sure, we could have just shut up and let them be d*cks. That would have been OK, but it wouldn't solve anything. It doesn't change their beliefs, and it doesn't change their initial hostility towards us.

Don't for a minute blame anyone on this team for making GS Hate us. That idea is a farse. If they hadn't posted their feelings they'd still exist, and they do exist within their forums. We're just fortunate that it finally came out.

I don't think that DeepO's ridiculous belief that we convinced Vox to attack GS is due to the fact that a couple of us posted replied in his public threat forum. When they hold beliefs like that privately, our silence doesnt' do a damn thing to dispell them. Sure, our arguing probably doesn't help things either, but it might. It might be enough to get a sensible member of their team to step in and try to make the peace, bring out all the issues, put them on the table, and resolve them.

All our silence tells them is that we don't disagree with them.

--Togas

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by Togas
When they hold beliefs like that privately, our silence doesnt' do a damn thing to dispell them. Sure, our arguing probably doesn't help things either, but it might. It might be enough to get a sensible member of their team to step in and try to make the peace, bring out all the issues, put them on the table, and resolve them.

Though I disagree with the way the posting went in public and will not attempt to justify it, I agree 100% that the solution is to mediate the dispute

[GodKing]

Togas - please my friend. I may disagree with you on some things, but please note, I did not say (as implied) to remain silent. I offer a difference of opinion.

From the number of PM's I have received since I first posted in that thread (from 5 different members of GS - all asking to remain confidential and private), GS is paranoid against us. They feel, rightly the way we have been not communicating with them, that we dislike their team and want to see them die as soon as possible. OK. Are they a threat to us - D@mn straigh they are. Do we want to see them knocked down - yes. Do we want them dead and gone - NO, that leaves lots of room for someone else to emerge and threaten us. What I am saying is why make an enemy when there is no need. They already are knocked down. They wasted their GA. They are in a sticky fight that will probably destroy both themselves and Vox for long term victory, and they know it.

DeepO and others said some stupid things. And yes, I think he and his team know it and are a bit embarassed. What I am saying is don't rub their faces in it. Don't trap them in a corner (they will do that to themselves eventually anyways). Don't antaginize them. Don't increase their paranoia of us, else we will be their target, even if it is just to be a spoiler (they have no chance of winning - so why let us have a chance kinda thing).

Now that we are communicating, GS's paranoia of us is lifting a bit. It is good and right to defend ourselves. It is another thing to point at them, call and point out all their flaws, then rub their noses in it. Think about what I am saying my friends. Think about the differences I am pointing out. They are minute, but significant.

GS can be a friend, an enemy, or neutral. I know that even if they are our freind, we will always act as if they are an enemy and defend ourselves accordingly. As they would do with us.

You wonder why we came to light in this conversation. Think about it. It is well known that we have an extra sourse of Iron (or at least, the potential of an extra) that we can trade to them. So does ND, but they are never on the forums. Nobody knows what Lego has (and they are not saying). So yes, it is obvious that we would be the ones to give to Vox the iron they will need. A simple check of the diplomicy (I think - I am not completely familiar with the changes made with multiplayer) screen should confirm who is trading what with whome, so don't think any gift would not be known.

Anyways, enough talk. Good night.

(and visit the SPDG now and then you all)

GK

[BigFree]

Originally posted by GodKing
You wonder why we came to light in this conversation. Think about it. It is well known that we have an extra sourse of Iron (or at least, the potential of an extra) that we can trade to them. So does ND, but they are never on the forums. Nobody knows what Lego has (and they are not saying). So yes, it is obvious that we would be the ones to give to Vox the iron they will need. A simple check of the diplomicy (I think - I am not completely familiar with the changes made with multiplayer) screen should confirm who is trading what with whome, so don't think any gift would not be known.

I have checked several MP games and I've yet to find a way to see how they would find out who traded what to whom. Will someone, if they know how it can be done, please explain it to me. Thanks.

[History Guy]

Your Majesty,

The only way to effectively deal with this is action, of course, as you state. However, I think that offensive action will get ourselves killed, and that the only realistic option we have if we want to survive for very long is to use Thud's plan for a peacekeeping operation.

I only hope that our troops overseas won't be needed back home when the Arabs have Ansars.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

[Hot Mustard]

GodKing - well put!

I think we have an opportunity here to repeat the magic we pulled with GoW. After some tense times and communications with GoW, where we each got things off our chest, we eventually got deals done, and relations have improved dramatically afterwards. It was a matter of the teams getting used to one another, and diplomacy styles.

The thread in the public forum is the same thing, but with GS. I am not in favour of further involvement with Vox. If we let them go, we stand a very good chance of very good relations with GS for the following reasons:
-they never had proof that we had any deals with Vox (tech/money)
-we never sent any units over (like GoW did)
-we both "got stuff off our chest" in the forums and then cooled down (don't underestimate this one!)

If we add a luxury trade with them to this mix, we become their best friend on Bob! ND never talks to anyone, and GoW are opportunistic mercenaries, who dropped units on their shore. Lego is all alone, unchecked and scary. If we play this right, we may be able to enlist GS's help/backing in a war against ND - protecting our shores with their galleys while we march north (just one possibility).

I just want people to realize that their is potential benefit from being as courteous to GS as we have been to GoW, Vox, and Lego. We really haven't gotten anything out of our friendship with Vox - I think it is time to let go.

[History Guy]

I hope this is the case, but I distrust Egypt. If they swallow up Persia, they may become unbeatable.

[Aidun]

Originally posted by dejon
Togas, I agree with everyone you said, except I must question giving Vox iron.

That will certainly make us a target for GS. There is nothing to prevent them from slowing their takeover of Vox, while attacking us at the same time.

This question came up in my head when I read this:

How can GS know that WE are giving iron to Vox?

What I mean to say with this is that there are more sources of iron in this world and there are more tradingpartners too. So GS won't have the idea that it is us who are giving iron to vox, they will most likely scratch on their heads and question themselves who is that person that is trading Iron to Vox.

But imagine that GS would suspect us to trade iron to Vox. We can easily prevent this by starting to support GS on a very, very, very, extremely small basis. If we keep the amounts of gold very small, is is 1) easy to afford for us; 2) a sign of friendship to GS; 3) too little gold to be of use for GS.

They will believe we are their friend and in fact we are truely supporting Vox. it costs but little more than the help we are perhaps going to send Vox.

I can imagine, that this plan will sound very strange to you, but this is real politics: the dirty war.

Whatever you think of this plan, I agree with Togas on his reasons to keep the war going on. We benefit of this war more than any other nation so it shouldn't be stopped. I think it is now time for the ambassadors to discuss plans with our allies to keep the war on. The more players are involved, the better it is.

Be sure that we keep the Bob alliance active. IF GS would decide to invade our country, I would dearly like to see grey and yellow flags on the beaches before Barcelona, Valencia and New Madrid.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza.

[Aidun]

Originally posted by dejon
GodKing - well put!

I think we have an opportunity here to repeat the magic we pulled with GoW. After some tense times and communications with GoW, where we each got things off our chest, we eventually got deals done, and relations have improved dramatically afterwards. It was a matter of the teams getting used to one another, and diplomacy styles.

The thread in the public forum is the same thing, but with GS. I am not in favour of further involvement with Vox. If we let them go, we stand a very good chance of very good relations with GS for the following reasons:
-they never had proof that we had any deals with Vox (tech/money)
-we never sent any units over (like GoW did)
-we both "got stuff off our chest" in the forums and then cooled down (don't underestimate this one!)

If we add a luxury trade with them to this mix, we become their best friend on Bob! ND never talks to anyone, and GoW are opportunistic mercenaries, who dropped units on their shore. Lego is all alone, unchecked and scary. If we play this right, we may be able to enlist GS's help/backing in a war against ND - protecting our shores with their galleys while we march north (just one possibility).

I just want people to realize that their is potential benefit from being as courteous to GS as we have been to GoW, Vox, and Lego. We really haven't gotten anything out of our friendship with Vox - I think it is time to let go.

I made a nice post an then suddenly I pressed crtl+w. ARRRGGGH

Again.

Good point Dejon. GS could be a worthy friend. The key strategy is but to have friens that are strong enough to support you, but too weak to invade you.
If you don't believe this, ask the American presidents that were in charge during the Cold War or any Soviet leader that is still alive.

I think but that we can help Vox as well as become friends with GS. We have to take the initiative for this. Perhaps make an offer for a cheap luxury trade deal as well, that doesn't really harm us, but shows that we do not concern them as our enemies.

The only way to solve a conflict is to talk, any use of military force will only cause anger at their side. In the midst of a war you cannot enter the battlefield without entering a war. Such is only an option when the pikes are broken and the arrows shot: when both are chort of units.

Keep talking...


I also want to use this post as an opportunity to point on the need of mines for Zaragoza in order to produce units to protect your shores. Señor Dejon must be delighted to hear that I am planning to produce pikemen as soon as Zaragoza has two more mines. Until then we waste 25% of a turn every time we finish a division of pikemen.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

[History Guy]

Duke Aidun,

Surely you've read the international discussions. If they find the Persians with iron, they'll know it has been given them from abroad. The most likely suspect in such a case would be Spain.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

[Aidun]

[ooc]Allright, Spain is the most likely nation that could give it, but isn't it also true that sources can suddenly pop up and disapear?[/ooc]

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza