Announcement

**ruby_maser** · June 4, 2003, 23:33

Re: The Current situation with Vox

Originally posted by BigFree
Comments and suggestions, please.

Grim...

Under those circumstances, I would have refrained from saying we are committed to the war. Given those screenshots, all I would want to commit to would be preventing GS from gaining the entire content.

Political pressure should be put on GS to make peace, and ever nation in the world besides GS should be made to fear the consequences of allowing the war to continue. They are threatening the balance of power now. A global tech embargo should be drafted (if possible). Our units (and any other that would send them) should be used as peacekeepers or as a blockade, if at all.

Any peace treaty should favor GS as little as possible, and Vox should be welcomed as our newest, unfortunate vassal state and be resupplied to survive.

**E_T** · June 5, 2003, 00:56

A global Tech alliance will only mean that GS will not be able to sell their Techs to anyone, for a time being. But they will still be able to Out Research Everyone on the Planet, so the loss of a few tech sales will not hurt them as badly

BUT, this is the key thing, WHOEVER gets to the #2 tech position and is able to keep it, will have the oppertunity to make a mint....

As for sending a couple of Horses and Sword/MI's (and think that we can rely on Vox to sell us Enginerring cheaply), this is suicide and I wll not be a party to it

But maybe there is something else that we can do...

E_T

**Hot Mustard** · June 5, 2003, 01:20

Oh boy. This is worse than I imagined. BetaHound gave us a ton of information here.

-Vox will lose their Iron next turn
-They are forced to send all available forces to their chokepoint to fend of the northern stack, leaving their southern mountain squatters and Dissidentville sitting targets for GS
-Their northern cities are totally undefended, ripe for land or sea invasion (from GS or GoW)
-They have practically no money
-Engineering is still 18 turns away

I've been expecting GS to topple Dissidentville for awhile, but now I know what they were doing - building galleys.

I hate to reneg on a deal, but I don't see any point in continuing Operation Engineering Payment - Vox will be all but finished by the time we get our galleys over there, and they wouldn't be able to give us Engineering for yet longer.

I could now see this game becoming Lego vs. GoW/ND/RP vs. GS.

GS is the powerhouse, thanks to their Republic GA, and a continent to themselves (soon). Lego is next, having been on their own since the beginning. Last is the "Bob Consortium" - the only way we can keep pace is cooperation. If war breaks out between any of GoW/ND/RP, we spell our collective deaths.

By cooperating, the Bob Consortium could be quite nasty - Riders & Ansars accompanied by a Spanish defense corp and supported by the mighty Spanish economy. ?? I strongly doubt we can get ourselves together quick enough to save Vox though, unless GS will listen to diplomacy. However, if I were GS, I would wipe Vox out.

**BigFree** · June 5, 2003, 02:57

Look, Vox is not dead, but they cannot keep pace with GS for much longer. They have been keeping pace by building Warriors in the North cities and then bringing them down to Dissidentville and using Lego's gold to upgrade them. Still, they need our help. GoW has also pledged help. Lego is giving gold. ND will be approached by GoW, Vox, RP, and possibly Lego about providing assistance as well to Vox in gold and resouces.

Why are we in this? What do we gain in Vox holds ground or even takes something from GS? What do we stand to lose or face in the future if GS is allowed to have the whole of Estonia to settle on?

The answer's to these question are clear to me.

1. We get Engineering from Vox. Not the most important result of our involvement, but a very worthwhile one.

2. GS does not get to settle all of Estonia unhindered. Do we need another Lego in this world?

3. If Vox and GS hold equal, or near equal amounts of land, neither will be a factor later in the game, unless they cooperate to take on other Civs, which is highly unlikely now.

ND has an extra Horse to give. Gow will have Chiv in 8 turns. We are talking Rider's, mabye 10 of them, in addition to our own units and Vox's Immortals. I give Vox good odds under those circumstances. GS's GA will end soon and thus they're major push towards Vox will stutter. If we can back up Vox for right now, until GoW can get their Rider's there, then we will have completed all 3 items above.

MrWIA: I need you to contact ND and ask them about supporting Vox in this War. Ask them to supply Vox with Horses and perhaps Gold. Lego has done the same for Vox out of fear of a strong GS, we should also pay their heed.

WhiteBandit: Please talk to MZ about this situation let him know that we are completely commitied to this war, we are 'unwavering' in our support. I don't want to give GoW a reason to back out.

I want to see some discussion on the matter for the next 3-4 days; then we can post a poll with some options on what we should do.

**E_T** · June 5, 2003, 03:06

Everyone who reads this thread needs to also read one in the PTWDG Forum, Public Announcement from Gathering Storm. This is something that we can't ingore, but that we really can't do much about either.

E_T

**Hot Mustard** · June 5, 2003, 10:08

Here's a relevant discussion BigFree, E_T and myself had on IRC last night:

Summary:
-E_T is against any involvement in the war and wishes us to rescind OEP
-dejon agrees with E_T, but also thinks we should engage ND and GoW into alliance discussions to protect our land against GS invasion
-BigFree (very nobly) thinks OEP should not only proceed, but wishes us to send more, and involve other civs in any and every way to attempt to hurt GS

* dejon plays "Taps" for Vox
[E_T] Dejon, I was just talking about that
[E_T] We are sending too little, too late
[E_T] BUT, we can take advantage of Vox's bad postion and take most of the land from them
* E_T sets mode: +o dejon
[E_T] and get our own source of Incense
[BigFree] it doesn't do us any good ET
[dejon] http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...38#post2062638
[BigFree] GS would take it away in a heart beat
[dejon] Everything hinges on how GS responds to Diplomacy in the next few turns
[BigFree] they will build two cities this turn
[BigFree] not much to discuss
[dejon] Meanwhile, we have to change the nature of our relationships at home
[BigFree] dejon, GoW and Vox are courting ND to join as well
[BigFree] Vox now has Hartbor
[E_T] Or one and add a settler to it to get it up to speed production wise
[BigFree] we can send them iron in two turn
[BigFree] they are intwo different locations ET, two differnet stacks. It will be two cities
[E_T] BF, so you want to use one of our very few workers to make a colony?
[BigFree] ND cansend them Horses
[BigFree] Yes, ET
[dejon] Beta is hoping to kill the northern stack (with settler), right?
[BigFree] right
[BigFree] but not the one in the south
[E_T] And I have Govenors screaming for work that needs to get done, and Lost one worker build to a settler
[BigFree] the settler will have settled by the time they get there
[BigFree] I can give you two out of Bilboa
[dejon] This is going to be a hot topic!
[BigFree] yes
[E_T] and was ignored when I wanted to have several cities at once build settlers to get the last of our land settled and claimed and so that we can get other thing done
[BigFree] it is a balacing act
[E_T] Yes, but ballancing WHAT, our future or someone elses mistakes??
[BigFree] LOL
[BigFree] no, our builds and desires
[E_T] It was a mistake for Vox not to get Monarchy for their GA
[BigFree] units/improvements/settlers/workers
[dejon] We wouldn't have the funds now for unit upgrades if the cities weren't the size they are.
[BigFree] That's a point
[E_T] It was a mistake for us (i.e. Togas) to not pressure them into geting it and getting a Monarchy GA
[dejon] Vox was an undermanned, inexperienced team from the start - we all knew that. Unfortunately they drew GS as a neighbour.
[BigFree] I agree with That ET
[E_T] It was a mistake to try to even send a small pitance of troops such a ditance to try to help any of them
[BigFree] ET, will you drop that already
[BigFree] you said that klike ten times
[dejon] I feel badly for them, but let's not further damage our own agenda by continuing to pretend that they aren't doomed.
[BigFree] we mad a prom,ise
[E_T] And we say, sorry
[BigFree] we get Eng for it
[dejon] Not likely
[E_T] and then we stab them in the back
[BigFree] 18 turns at 1 beaker per turn
[BigFree] we will get it then
[E_T] and take the incense and a couple of other cities
[E_T] they don't HAVVE 18 turns
[dejon] In half that time GS could have half their cities, or more
[BigFree] ET, GS will simply take those cities form us, we cannot support those cities, thay are too far awya
[E_T] Not If we make an agreement
[BigFree] Vox still has 40 units
[E_T] GS has nothing against us
[BigFree] and more comming
[E_T] We have not threated them
[BigFree] plus our help and GoW help, plus Lego cash
[E_T] we have not given them any reason to try to take them from us
[BigFree] they will take it for the same reason we would so so on Bob.
[E_T] We NEED to concentrate at Home or take what is available
[dejon] Our 6 units + GoW 4 units + Lego cash still won't make a difference though
[BigFree] plus GoW Rider's?
[BigFree] not only 4
[BigFree] like 10
[E_T] And then GoW has their GA
[dejon] In how long?
[BigFree] man, you guys give up to easy, are you sure you didn't come form Lux!

[BigFree] 8 turns till Chiv for GoW
[E_T] Look, I wasn't in this to begin with
[dejon] Give up??? We're not involved! Are you sure you didn't emmigrate from Vox?

[BigFree] LOL
[E_T] I look at this as a logistic nightmare
[BigFree] I grant youit is not a perfect picture in the least, but it is not as bad as youmake it sound. It would BE that bas if GoW and Lego and RP pulled their support.
[E_T] We need to Buck Up and get moving, or ND will run us over
[dejon] And I was obliged to do OEP because our Diplomatic team made the deal - I never would have
[E_T] You could have refused
[BigFree] If we pull our support, then GoW does the Same, then Lego, thenVOox is dead and GS is a superpoer, end of story.
[WhiteBandit] I don't like Vox's chances, but I don't think we should turn around and take them as well, that would be a nightmare as well... the cities are too far away to be of any use and GS could probably culture flip them if they wanted
[BigFree] exactly
[E_T] We can also build temples
[dejon] Only GoW could use the cities well, with a well placed FP
[WhiteBandit] But I think we should probably only give Vox token support at this point as it looks like a futile effort
[E_T] so, we can sell them to GoW for things
[BigFree] I know what I'm talking about here, trust me, those cities would be too far away for us to protect.
[E_T] Or GS even
[WhiteBandit] yeah
[WhiteBandit] a temple would only take about 75 turns to build way over there ;P
[BigFree] LOL
[E_T] only 30 turns
[dejon] And us sending units that we can't support makes no more sense than taking Vox cities.
[BigFree] we could pop ruch it
[BigFree] we are getting two things in this deal:
[BigFree] 1 Engineering
[E_T] no
[BigFree] 2 Gs is not an early superpower
[dejon] In 18 turns, if they survive. (not likely)
[E_T] Vox will be dead before then
[BigFree] they will
[BigFree] with outr support
[E_T] GS is already a Superpower
[BigFree] and Gow's
[dejon] GS WILL BE A SUPERPOWER, regardless.
[BigFree] not neccesarily
[BigFree] Tell ho one team can stand up to 4-5 other teams that are commited to their destructiion?
[E_T] and this idea of a tech embargo will only denign GS with income
[BigFree] that is a biggy
[dejon] Our involvement will not prolong that much, if at all, but WILL strongly damage our internal affairs and reputation
[E_T] We need to (GoW, RP, ND & Lego) come to GS and say, Look, your neighbor has made a mistake, they are sorry, and want peace
[WhiteBandit] eh
[dejon] BF - wrong. GS can simply cover the Estonia coast with warrior/workers until amphibious units become available - we couldn't touch them.
[E_T] then tell them that we will not have Vox destroyed
[WhiteBandit] will we even land troops in 18 turns?
[WhiteBandit] we have 1 galley?
[dejon] our other two galleys are maybe 10 turns from getting there
[dejon] or more
[BigFree] dejon, they do not have that capacity, yet, if they desroy Vox, then they might.
[WhiteBandit] by which time many more of their cities could be destroyed?
[E_T] more, IIRC
[WhiteBandit] i think it's futile
[dejon] WB - most assuredly
[BigFree] we can land to horsies in 2 turns
[WhiteBandit] from what i am understanding, most of the other nations aren't really going to land things soon either
[WhiteBandit] it's a hopeless situation
[WhiteBandit] too little, too late
[dejon] Woo hoo! That'll lead to a repeat of GoW's earlier act
[E_T] Two Horse, and Beta sais that thier 40 Immortals are getting chewed up
[BigFree] If you think of it in terms of our two horses against GS,then of dourse it is futile. It is th e big picture that matters. All of our units, plus GoW's plus Lego's Money adds up to weaken GS's position.
[dejon] BF - I admire your resolve to try to help. We all (RP/GoW/ND) should have helped far sooner and organized it - it is just WAY too late now.
[WhiteBandit] and where are lego's, GoW's units/money?
[E_T] BF, you just might as well go and piss in the river to make it flood
[WhiteBandit] how far away will everything land BF?
[BigFree] The moey is a recurirng thing WB
[dejon] How much money do they give?
[BigFree] the two horsies willland way back beind the lines
[BigFree] they give "a lot" is all Vox nd Lego would tell me
[WhiteBandit] they just landed 12 units near Vox territory, and probably have many more to back that up... we're thinking of landing about 10 - 14 units between all of us total?
[WhiteBandit] and that isn't even within 10 turns?
[WhiteBandit] it's hopeless.
[E_T] One thing also about taking a Vox City, the ability to have a staging point for future colition operations against them
[WhiteBandit] however... i disagree with E_T
[WhiteBandit] :P
[dejon] For all we know, GS has another dozen galleys approaching in a second wave, destined further north.
[BigFree] But..Vox has more units down south. GS is hoping to draw all those units up North, a diviersion if you will.
[WhiteBandit] i doubt it...
[BigFree] I can see it in the screen shots
[BigFree] so

[E_T] It's a classic cut them off from the knees move
[WhiteBandit] BH even stated himself that thing weren't good
[dejon] GS isn't afraid of the southern units, they've been pounding them with catapults.
[WhiteBandit] and they have the strongest ancient attacker in the game
[WhiteBandit] yeah
[WhiteBandit] they can't send reinforcements down south without risking the cities
[BigFree] things are not good for Vox, because help hasn't arrived yet.
[WhiteBandit] err
[WhiteBandit] risking their units
[WhiteBandit] and when GS settles the two cities there as well
[WhiteBandit] they will lose their Iron PLUS it gives GS a forward operating point closer to Vox territory
[E_T] One will take their Iron away
[E_T] and cuts off Disodentville
[WhiteBandit] so now those 40 units are completely cut off from home and on their own to die in GS land, whether they are diverted or not.
[dejon] BF - look at it this way - GS can send those galleys home and return with the same number of Med Inf. in only FIVE turns! How long do you think the currently undefended northern cities will stand up to that kind of attack?
[E_T] And GS is mostly on a course that will lead to Vox;s defeat
[BigFree] Dejon, that is assuming that GS has those units to send
[E_T] Look at their production capability
[dejon] We know they're stronger than Vox, and Vox has 40+ units...
[BigFree] Look at how many units mayhave dided against Vox's units too....
[WhiteBandit] eh man
[E_T] edited for content
[dejon] unit estimates?
[E_T] build up a production throughput capability
[E_T] And if you look at what ND has been doing, it's precisely that
[E_T] ND is the clear and present Danger
[E_T] If they wanted to, Spain would be history
[dejon] They're what keeps this Commander up at night.

[E_T] Even before they get Ansars
[dejon] I doubt that, but we're definitely underestimating them.
[E_T] GS is a powerhouse, Nothing that we can really do to stop it
[E_T] But We need to survive
[dejon] If we can get ND and GoW on board for Diplomatic punishments of GS, it will help relations amongst us (having a common foe)
[E_T] and sending money, and units on a promice of something that will mostlikely NOT happen is ludicrist
[E_T] Dejon, True
[E_T] but then, what do we do when GS just thumbs their nose at us all??
[dejon] the only thing we can do - nothing.
[dejon] build up our defenses - they've got quite a navy there.
[E_T] galleys are cheap when you have a GA
[dejon] What did everyone think of my GoW/ND/RP alliance idea in that thread?
[E_T] and they can now upgrade them when they get Astro
[BigFree] their GA ends soon, i would believe
[dejon] We could be our own powerhouse if we colloborated
[BigFree] didn't see it yet dejon
[dejon] http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...38#post2062638
[BigFree] we are planning a Gow/RP
[BigFree] I thought
[BigFree] firat against GS then ND
[E_T] guys, I'm afraid to say this, but I really think that we need some new leadership in this team
[BigFree] I don't agree
[BigFree] but you may bring the issue up of course
[E_T] I knew you wouldn't, BF
[BigFree] LOL
[dejon] I'm strictly talking about defending our continent first, and joint defense against GS invasion. But later on we could build up a good Ansar/Rider/Spanish defenders Army.
[E_T] If we all cooperate
[BigFree] Let's just make this simple and do a poll?
[BigFree] Do we continue to support Vox or Not
[E_T] Thing is will they trust us?
[BigFree] but lets wait a day or two to post it
[BigFree] who ET
[E_T] Why
[dejon] GoW and ND, you mean?
[E_T] yes
[BigFree] to give people a chance to think about it before voting impulsivley
[E_T] start a discussion thread, then
[BigFree] I want discuusion followed by a poll
[E_T] or use that one already for that
[BigFree] not the other way around
[BigFree] exatly\
[dejon] It's always difficult to work together without backstabbing in civ - but if the case is strong enough, it can be done.
[BigFree] you are right dejon
[E_T] brb....
[dejon] In this case, the civs on our continent have reason to fear both GS and Lego.
[BigFree] yep
[BigFree] Here's a tentatie agreemtn we have with GoW right now
* E_T is now known as E_T_Smoking_ourside
[dejon] In the short term, we can do nothing about GS on their continent effectively, but we can prepare to defend ourselves.
[BigFree] we take out GS or prevent them from destroying Vox, whichever we can do
[dejon] Any one of use alone could not prevent a GS naval invasion, but we can together.
[BigFree] next we ally against ND and split bob
[E_T_Smoking_ourside] Or to help Lego (or even GoW), as we have treatys with them both
[BigFree] then we ally against either GS or Lego
[dejon] BF - No, that's not what I'm saying. It is just TOO LATE to stop GS on their own turf.
[E_T_Smoking_ourside] BF, we can (try to) pressure them to leave Vox alone, but we can't really threaten them
[BigFree] I know that is not what you are saying, but it is what GoW and I have tnetatively scheduled.
[E_T_Smoking_ourside] then you need to get on the horn with them and disscuse the new changes
[dejon] BF - I think you've "gone native".

[BigFree] LOL
[BigFree] I'm just intersted in keeping the other teams even with us until we can fully REX our land is all.
* E_T_Smoking_ourside .
[dejon] And I'm saying that it's too late to save Vox. We now have to worry about the civs on our land. GS could finish Vox in maybe 20-25 turns, and then land their navy on our shores, and we aren't prepared for that!
[BigFree] That is where we diagree, I think we and GoW can help keep Vox alive.
[dejon] We need to open serious cooperative discussion with ND/GoW. Propose sharing tech/money/luxuries continent-wide and coordinating forces to fend off GS invasion.
[BigFree] I don't want Vox alive for anyother reason that to prevent any other team getting there land, especially GS
[BigFree] I agree
[dejon] GS invasion of OUR land, not Vox's, which is as good as GS's already.
[dejon] A joint push by RP/GoW would extend Vox's lifespan by a handful of turns at best - 2 to 5. It's not worth the investment.
[BigFree] I beg to differ
[dejon] You are welcome to. We agree to disagree on this point.
[BigFree] We have at least 4 turns before our units could engage GS, we can discuss thi more fully in the forums
[dejon] Yup.
[dejon] Of course, our horseman attacking their Pikes is not an attack, it's suicide.
[E_T_Smoking_ourside] I think that Legoland is their next move
[dejon] They are the next biggest threat
[E_T_Smoking_ourside] and we have a treaty to help Logo to keep all others off of their contenant
* E_T_Smoking_ourside is now known as E_T
[dejon] But I would be surprised if they didn't feint towards our continent first, both to frighten us and to throw off Lego.
[E_T] [ZargonX] they have taken Vox's iron source in a "daring naval landing" and warn all other teams not to give iron to Vox, or pay the consequences later...

**mrmitchell** · June 5, 2003, 11:42

I think we should help Vox as much as we can, for the power balance if nothing else--we need to keep the game where everyone is at the same level, or disaster will happen. The Bob Consortium sounds like a great way to play, but we've got to get total trust from GoW and ND.

EDIT: King

**History Guy** · June 5, 2003, 12:40

My trouble is that I don't want us to get too deeply involved, but I don't want the Egyptians to get too powerful.

I frankly do not see how any expedition of ours will help. Vox Controli...is doomed.

**GodKing** · June 5, 2003, 12:55

Vox is not dead, but is severly weakened by this development. They will find it tough to go on the offensive for a long time.

Perhaps they should act like Sherman, and just pillage the hell out of the south?

I don't see any major changes, however. The two cities that GS will be founding will cut off the iron, but they cannot go on the offensive either now, can they? Looks like a stalemate. Time to either take off the gloves adn make everything messy, or to shake hands and become friends (or non enemies).

**Hot Mustard** · June 5, 2003, 13:06

Congrats, mrmitchell!

No Vox is not dead, but the undertaker is on the way.

I would rather we didn't call attention to ourselves by helping Vox in any way. If we give them iron or land units, GS could very easily decide to send the next 6 galleys of units to our shores. We are no more prepared to deal with them than Vox.

I feel badly about it, but it's survival of the fittest, and Vox doesn't make the cut.

**Togas** · June 5, 2003, 13:15

The war between Vox and GS MUST CONTINUE. I cannot stress this enough. If they end up in peace, GS's very large and advanced standing army has several gallies, as shown to us in the above shots. If they promise a period of peace with Vox they will abide by it. If they feel the desire to use their considerable military to attack someone SPAIN IS THEIR NEXT TARGET.

You need only consult the map to notice our proximity to GS. We have abismal defenses on our East Coast, if they attack us with even a small raiding party we will lose New Madrid, Barcelona, and Valencia before we can bring in any reinforcements. They are a short galley trip (they have the Great Lighthouse) away and can easily reinforce any invasion.

So long as the two of them continue to fight the rest of us get a chance to catchup with GS and prepare ourselves to compete.

We will continue to promise aid and give aid to Vox. We will not heavily commit any forces, however, we can and will offer to give them iron for free after their iron is cut.

Our future is secure so long as we keep ND and GS in check. We have an alliance to keep ND in check, and their military is the same size as ours. Our active encouragement of Vox keeps GS in check, and we WILL continue this policy.

--Togas

**Hot Mustard** · June 5, 2003, 13:29

Togas, I agree with everyone you said, except I must question giving Vox iron.

That will certainly make us a target for GS. There is nothing to prevent them from slowing their takeover of Vox, while attacking us at the same time.

**ruby_maser** · June 5, 2003, 15:20

Originally posted by Togas
The war between Vox and GS MUST CONTINUE. I cannot stress this enough. If they end up in peace, GS's very large and advanced standing army has several gallies, as shown to us in the above shots. If they promise a period of peace with Vox they will abide by it. If they feel the desire to use their considerable military to attack someone SPAIN IS THEIR NEXT TARGET.

You need only consult the map to notice our proximity to GS. We have abismal defenses on our East Coast, if they attack us with even a small raiding party we will lose New Madrid, Barcelona, and Valencia before we can bring in any reinforcements. They are a short galley trip (they have the Great Lighthouse) away and can easily reinforce any invasion.

So long as the two of them continue to fight the rest of us get a chance to catchup with GS and prepare ourselves to compete.

We will continue to promise aid and give aid to Vox. We will not heavily commit any forces, however, we can and will offer to give them iron for free after their iron is cut.

Our future is secure so long as we keep ND and GS in check. We have an alliance to keep ND in check, and their military is the same size as ours. Our active encouragement of Vox keeps GS in check, and we WILL continue this policy.

Makes perfect sense to give tacit support to Vox in their struggle; makes no sense to involve our troops in a visible show of support just to prevent GS from coming our way. I can't think of anything that would infuriate them more.

As for giving them iron, GoW doesn't have it to give, Lego couldn't use their harbors to trade yet, and GS certainly wouldn't give iron to Vox in defiance of the own request to not supply iron to Vox

That only leaves us and ND, and if they weren't thinking straight that ND could trade it through GoW's harbor, it only leaves us. Also, we cannot know ND's relationship with GS. If it is friendly enough, their word might be all it takes to make us the bad guys.

I don't won't to be GS's next target, but I also certainly don't want to run around with a bullseye our collective chest to avoid being GS's next target. Sounds like a way to become GS's next target

**Togas** · June 5, 2003, 16:34

These are excellent points. Vox has yet to ask us officially to give them iron and we do not yet have it linked up.

Let us consider this issue if and when Vox asks, and see if there is anything we can gain from it, as it certainly has it's downside.

Not that our relations with GS will improve even if we don't give it to Vox. GS's attitude towards us is astoundingly hostile.

--Togas