Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

OK, let's up the bundle offer to 400+500 and more or less accept their offer (500) if they take just Physics now, with no future obligations.

Kloreep - ND would not determine our next tech in the sense of forcing us to go for Magnetism or ToG - that's why I expressly put the turn numbers in. We shall be doing a new tech every 4 turns in our GA, so even if we had to do MT ourselves, we would still be able to deliver the next non-MT tech in time according to the proposal presented. The only constraint coming out of this trade would be we would not be completely free to start with a tech of our choice, had we to research MT (we would have to go MT, ND's choice, the remaining one). But in case we get MT from GoW, we are fine and ND's choice will not affect us in any way (as we will do BOTH Magnetism and ToG in the set time frame anyway).

[Tiberius]

Let's make our proposal modelled after theirs. IMO it is harder to "swallow" a totally different trade, even if it is a better one. I think they will bite more easily if our offer will look like:

1. 80 Gold for 6 turns for Physics or

2. 70 gold for 6 turns for Physics and 500 gold in cash, payable upon delivery for one other technology of choice (Magnetism or Theory of Gravity).

This way our offer will be 480 or 420+500. I would even settle on 60x6 (360) + 500 for the second proposal, to make it look even more attractive. 40 gold (the difference from 360 to the discussed 400) is not such a big deal.

[vondrack]

Sounds fine to me. Good point about following the model they proposed. I would also support 6x60+500 - I really believe we should make them excited about the deal.

[vondrack]

I PMed Zayxus with the following message:

Hello, Zayxus!

Sorry for the delay, there was a bunch of new ideas presented in our private forum, some of them going way beyond this deal - I am really looking forward to talking to you on Thursday, as there is a lot to discuss. This is what we have eventually decided to offer you regarding Physics:

Option A - Physics only: Legoland delivers Physics on ND's Turn 180 (640AD) and ND then pays 480g in six 80g installments (ND's Turns 180-185, 640AD to 690AD). Yes, this is a bit less than what you offered to us. But you said the price was negotiable...

Option B - Physics+1: Legoland delivers Physics on ND's turn 180 and ND then pays 390g in six 65g installments (ND's Turns 180-185, 640AD to 690AD). Legoland will then, no later than on ND's Turn 188 (720AD), deliver one more tech of ND's choice, either Theory of Gravity or Magnetism, in exchange for 500g in cash.

No resale rights included in either option. We would need you to name the tech of your choice reasonably soon (before we deliver you Physics and start our next research project).

How does the other option sound? You would get Physics for mere 390g and one other tech for 500g? Hope this demonstrates our will to truly cooperate.

Our best regards to your team,
vondrack

Hello Vondrack!

The Minister for Financy of Neu Demogyptica can offer to the Science Ministery of Legoland 90 Gold for 6 turns to pay for technology of physics. ND will save the Gold until the Physics of Legoland is finished in 3 turns; ND could offer than 270 Gold and pay 90 Gold for 3 more turns. ND aks Legoland to decide, when to give Physics, considering about other offers of physics. ND pronounces, still to be discussing offers, until your handing over of physics. The decision of this deal will be a concern of global politics. About the sum of cost of physics can be discussed.

Greetings
Zayxus
Acting as Diplomat for Neu Demogyptica

[Tiberius]

You know, I've calculated how much ND would have been willing to pay for Magnetism or ToG, based on how much they offered for Physics.

So:
The value of Physics = 1536
Magnetism / Theory of Gravity = 1632

540 (their offer) / 1536 = 0,3515

0,3515 * 1632 = 573,65

So, based on their Physics proposal, ND should be willing to pay at least 550 gold for Magnetism. Theoretically they will take our second offer with both hands (hmm, is there such an expression in english? It is similar to "jump in with both feet" No? Oh well, you got it). Theoretically ...

[ZargonX]

You know, I just realized this, and I apologize if the rest of you already knew it: ND controls all of the SP on Bob. Talk about the valuable ally to have if GoW turns on us; without ND's support, a GoW/GS alliance couldn't build Cavs. I think this just makes it even more vital we keep them in our good graces.

[vondrack]

More good news, this time from ND:

Session Start: Thu Feb 19 21:51:14 2004
Session Ident: #dealchat
* Now talking in #dealchat
vondrack: hello!
Zayxus: hello!
vondrack: finally here, sorry for the delay
vondrack: so, what about our deal?
Zayxus: another member voted for Option B - like me, if there was no protest, it is accepted.
vondrack: lol
vondrack: two members is what decides votes?
vondrack: down to that few active members?
vondrack: there is no hurry, actually - we have at least one more turn
vondrack: so if you need more time, just take it
Zayxus: oh, there were other topics, for which much more did vote, as said, if there is no protest to my vote , and I see the 'hits' of the thread, it is accepted.
vondrack: I see
vondrack: which would be the "other" tech of your choice?
Zayxus: moment... there arrived 2 more votes: now 3 votes for... magnetism
vondrack: ok... once you are sure about that, just name it - we do not care that much which one it is, just that we would appreciate knowing it in advance, so that we can adjust our research path
Zayxus: I do not know, why they voted for magnetism, but I think, it will not change much; if it does, ND will tell you.
Zayxus: It is difficult to count the turns, please could you remember me, when 'Physics' is finished?
vondrack: 2 turns from now
vondrack: you would get it on your Turn 180, IIRC
Zayxus: how do you count the turns in numbers instead of in years? is there a table of turn-year?
vondrack: yes, there is... Turn 180 is 640AD
vondrack: Zayxus, shall I send you a draft of the trade agreement? along the lines of ther Option B, incorporating Magnetism as the "other" tech?
Zayxus: yes, please, I would place this draft into our forum, if you draft the deal.
vondrack: ok, will do after the chat
vondrack: now... as I mentioned in my PM
vondrack: there was a whole bunch of ideas thrown around in our forum
Zayxus: which ideas?
vondrack: basically, it all boils down to that we do not want to see you overrun by GoW or GS
vondrack: I am not saying they would attack you
vondrack: but IF they did, we would certainly be very unhappy about that
Zayxus: what did Legoland consider?
vondrack: we were discussing all kinds of help, one-way and mutual
vondrack: most of that would be progressive, as you relocate your core
vondrack: aside from fine tech deals
vondrack: we would consider trading or otherwise providing workers to help you out with terrain improvements
vondrack: we have dicussed the possibility of signing a Mutual Protection Pact with you, too
vondrack: so that we‘d come to help you if you are attacked
vondrack: and vice versa
Zayxus: that is very interesting.
vondrack: if you can mention this idea in your private forum
Zayxus: In case of a mutual protection pact: ND has to build a navy.
vondrack: frankly, I would not be sure of this
vondrack: we do have navy large enough
vondrack: and IF we get attacked on Legos
vondrack: we will not need help _here_ THAT much
Zayxus: what kind of protection by ND would Legoland like without a navy of ND?
vondrack: but rather someone bugging the attacker on his own territory
vondrack: since... if ND was our ally, it would have to be GoW or GS attacking us
vondrack: and then, the best aid you could provide us with against, say, GoW would be - attacking them on Bob
vondrack: I would like to make it very clear that I am talking ONLY defensive help here
vondrack: no help at all in case Lego or ND is actually the agressor
Zayxus: That is clear. is there such a "only defensive pact" in Single player? Suppose not. But in Multiplayer we can conclude such a pact.
vondrack: I think it's very close to what an MPP is in SP
vondrack: you get your ally's help only if you are the attacked party
vondrack: if you think this may be an idea worth discussing, I suggest that you discuss it with your teammates and maybe put together your idea of what kind of help from Lego ND would want in case ND is attacked
Zayxus: yes, I will put these proposals into the forum of ND.
vondrack: also... regarding our cooperation and help in peace times
vondrack: I could think of various ways how to cooperate. But it's sort of difficult to "push" any ideas to you when we do not really know what kind of help you really need.
vondrack: so - if there is anything you might need, tell us
vondrack: I am not saying we will always agree
vondrack: but we will always seriously consider your needs
vondrack: and do the best we will be able to
Zayxus: Thank you, I just consider, what ND would need in peace time.
vondrack: I am not going to pretend anything here...
vondrack: we do realize that one thing that could make this game rather dangerous
vondrack: would be yet another world war
vondrack: we would rather prevent that from happening
vondrack: and we believe that by helping you grow stronger
vondrack: we would, in fact, help ourselves, too
vondrack: because the balance of power is what helps us big time
Zayxus: At Forum of ND the balance of Power was discussed.
vondrack: btw... not sure if you can answer this question: have you arranged a deal for Military Tradition?
Zayxus: yes, ND has an offer.
vondrack: I am glad to hear that
Zayxus: That tech is important. It is important to be equal about a possibility of an attack with 6 point unit.
vondrack: should you need more gold to buy Military Tradition, we would be willing to help you out by postponing payments for the techs you are buying form us
vondrack: we also consider MT quite an important tech
vondrack: especially for you, as your territory is easier to reach than ours
Zayxus: It is more a matter of getting it than paying for it.
vondrack: ah... so it's not yet signed?
Zayxus: it is "signed" by word.
vondrack: I see
Zayxus: As defensive Civ, ND would even more need a better defensive unit.
vondrack: I think riflemen are not that far away
vondrack: I suspect we will see teams entering the industrial era within 10 turns
Zayxus: yes, that I thought of
vondrack: alright then... I will PM you with the final tech trade draft (gold+gold for Physics+Magnetism)
Zayxus: Rifleman would be the more save point of time, after having paid the upgrades, that would be expensive, I suppose.
vondrack: musket-to-rifle upgrade costs 40g
vondrack: so it's not cheap
vondrack: but not extremely expensive either
Zayxus: If you checked it: the main town of ND is in range of Riders for a attack in a single turn, as surprising attack, Ansars would not help that much, ND needs more defensive units there. ND is not keen on changing the place of the palace.
vondrack: you mean... your Palace should stay in Neutheben?
Zayxus: yes, simply, because in case of NT is captured by someone, the palace would jump to anywhere, right?
vondrack: not anywhere, but somewhere... you can actually predict where, but it's not a simple task
vondrack: but losing one's palace to a surprise attack is ugly, that's for sure
Zayxus: That story is for tactics.
vondrack: one thing I should mention, too:
vondrack: it was a rather runiversal sentiment throughout our team
vondrack: that our help would be gradually bigger and bigger as you'd hand over your former core to GoW
vondrack: (which is what we expect to happen, sooner or later)
Zayxus: thank you, ND just hopes that peace would last long, and ND would give the cities to GOW in peace. For my opinion the improvements by GoW could be more quickly by more workers.
vondrack: hmmm... would you be interested in a couple of our workers sailing over and helping you do some terrain improvements? I mean, we do not have all that many to send, after joining a good number of them to our cities right before triggering our GA, but we could send a few anyway
Zayxus: But there was no offer of workers as citizens to let the cities growing more quickly, thus the workers of GoW are just enough in what they improve of land.
vondrack: ah... so you'd need some workers to be added to your new cities?
Zayxus: Of course ND would like to improve land more quickly by having set mines into the mountains.
vondrack: yeah, I can imagine that... if you can put something in writing (like how many of workers you might need and where), I would be happy to bring that to my team
Zayxus: If Legoland likes to: they could improve and also set workers as citizen into a city.
Zayxus: I would have to check that.
vondrack: there are two ways to do this... we could simply sell some workers to you (this has a downside of them becoming slaves, working very slowly)
vondrack: or we could actually keep the workers, just doing improvements you'd need
Zayxus: Some cities like Anagramaskus have to be changed in improvement to get more food for this town and use the mountians
Zayxus: There ND now has only one worker left.
Zayxus: At the 2 cities many citizens could be added, because they have harbours, that would improve the income in gold there.
Zayxus: at the coast
vondrack: I see, we could discuss that as well
vondrack: give it a thought and let us know
vondrack: alright, I am feeling very sleepy
vondrack: I guess I should better go to bed
Zayxus: all right.
Zayxus: weekend is near.
Zayxus: all right...., how are your sailors at your coasts?
vondrack: sailors? you mean our caravels?
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: the have reached their final destinations this turn
vondrack: they will not move from now on
vondrack: except the southernmost one, I think
Zayxus: all right, enjoy your sleep?
vondrack: yeah, thank you - if you are available during the weekend and need to discuss anything, try PMing me
Zayxus: could be.
vondrack: I am very often sitting at my comp, doing something
vondrack: and it takes just minutes to get to a chatroom
Zayxus: all right.
vondrack: cool
vondrack: take care, then
vondrack: and talk to you next week (at latest)
vondrack: bye
Zayxus: bye
Session Close: Thu Feb 19 23:45:04 2004

Just a couple of comments:

1) Zayxus did not sound overly happy about how GoW cooperated at the moment (though they did get an offer to buy Military Tradition from GoW, it seemed).
2) OTOH, ND chose Magnetism, while GoW chose ToG - even if not a problem (we get MT through a trade), still the "worst" case for us (as we need to do both of these before having a shot at anything else - so if GoW fails to abide by the terms of the trade agreement, we would still be bound by the one signed with ND; a minor risk, but still a risk)
3) ND does not plan a palace jump, it seems, their palace is to stay in Neutheben
4) except the trade agreement draft (signing which I felt was in our best interest), I intentionally made it so that ND would have the ball now. It's up to them to say what kind of help they'd need and how close they'd like to get to us.

[vondrack]

Trade agreement draft PMed to Zayxus:

Hello, Zayxus!

Following our yesterday evening chat, here goes our official trade proposal:

Legoland-ND Physics & Magnetism trade agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Physics (in 640AD, Turn 180) and Magnetism (in 720AD, Turn 188). ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift any of these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving them.

2) In exchange for Physics & Magnetism, ND agrees to pay Legoland 890g in several installments as outlined in the third paragraph of this trade agreement.

3) The trades shall happen as follows: in 630AD (Turn 179) Legoland shall send Physics as 'accepted' to ND. ND shall then pay 390g to Legoland in six 65g installments paid in the period from 640AD (Turn 180) to 690AD (Turn 185). In 710AD (Turn 187), Legoland shall send Magentism as 'accepted' to ND. ND shall then, on its following turn, pay 500g to Legoland.

We haven't discussed the 500g payment schedule - if paying everything at once would be a problem for you, feel free to propose a different schedule, possibly spreading the payment across several turns, as with Physics.

Best regards,
vondrack

[vondrack]

A PM from Zayxus:

Hello vondrack,

there are some news

1) Luxury:
By random I found you could offer us dyes, and ND needs it.
ND is still exporting spices for Legoland.
If you want to deal spices for dyes from you, please offer it.
By my notes there was a deal of spices for dyes between us.

2) Technology:
The deal about Physics and Magnetism is going to be accepted in the Forum of ND.

3) City improvements:
There is just a little need around Bonigo at the west coast. ND soon needs his own workers for the new cities at the east coast.
And the two cities with harbors at the west coast could welcome a lot of citizens.

Greetings
Zayxus

It was my fault with the dyes, I forgot to send them last turn after the ingame "gift" deal expired. I have already PMed Zayxus back, apologizing.

The deal is apparently a go, so we can add ~900g to our revenues over the next 10t.

As for the last point... I believe it would be a gesture of good will (yes, yet another one) to - in no extra hurry, mind you - assemble a modest workgroup of three workers and sail them over to help ND around Bonigo. We can do without three workers (we are running out of "urgent" or "meaningful" jobs anyway) and ND will see we are serious about the help and cooperation. But prior to agreeing to anything, I would like to hear your opinions.

[Kloreep]

How many workers do we have right now? I've lost track.

However, I'd prefer to wait on worker aid till we have our military RRs in place.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
How many workers do we have right now? I've lost track.

33

Originally posted by Kloreep
However, I'd prefer to wait on worker aid till we have our military RRs in place.

See the post I have added to the RR thread a minute ago - the 3 workers would make almost no difference (180wt/30w=6t, 180wt/33w=5.5t).

[vondrack]

Well, checking our current trades this turn, I have found out we've got only 6 more turns of gem supplies left. Plus, there is quite a few turns of silk supplies not covered by any deal with ND (as the ingame deal will last much longer than our outgame deal - by 15 turns, I believe).

I suggest we move and offer ND Theory of Gravity for 20t of gems and the remaining 15 turns of silk supplies, securing gems & silks for the near future. If they are not outright happy, we throw in three workers extra to work on improvements around Bonigo.

Come to think of it, I'd probably add those workers to the deal right away.

What sayeth you?

[vondrack]

This chat with Zayxus was more important than the one with Master Zen. I would like everybody to read it. The crux should be summed up by a PM from Zayxus (to be posted in the next post):

Session Start: Thu Feb 26 22:02:29 2004
Session Ident: Zayxus
vondrack: Hi, Zayxus!
vondrack: anything to worry about?
vondrack: what's the reason for sitting on the save?
Zayxus: the save is ready to be send, you know, Master Zen gets it after this chat anyway
vondrack: ok
vondrack: what was it that delayed your turn, if I may know?
* Zayxus had a lot to do in real life
vondrack: ah, ok, I see
vondrack: btw... you have stronger military than GoW or GS
vondrack: you were the last to remain "average" vs. us
vondrack: it was only last turn we went strong vs. ND
vondrack: have you arranged any deals for Theory of Gravity?
vondrack: we'd be able to trade that to you quite soon
Zayxus: Does Legoland need more Gold to research more quickly?
vondrack: well, we are researching quite quickly
vondrack: ToG would be available pretty soon
vondrack: we'd be interested in prolonging some of our luxury deals
Zayxus: ToG before or after magnetism?
vondrack: possibly even before
vondrack: but magnetism will be delivered in time
vondrack: no worries about that
Zayxus: all right.
Zayxus: luxury?
vondrack: gems and silks
vondrack: 20t of gems
vondrack: 15t of silks
vondrack: (that's what's not covered by previous deals)
Zayxus: I try to remember about the deals...
vondrack: as that's quite a lot of luxuries, we might throw in something extra to make it more appealing to you
Zayxus: gems was for science
Zayxus: your offer?
vondrack: last time, you said ND could use some workers to develop the terrain around Bonigo
Zayxus: yes
* Zayxus was thinking a lot how to build more workers...
vondrack: we might do, say, three workers for 20turns part of such a deal
Zayxus: hmm, this is an idea.
vondrack: try to formulate a precise agreement
vondrack: something along the lines of ToG + 3 Lego workers for 20 turns in exchange for 20t of gems and 15t of silks
Zayxus: it is difficult to calculate it, what is luxury worth for workers actions.
vondrack: yes, it is... you can't really calculate it
Zayxus: It is agreed in the sense of a gesture of friendship.
Zayxus: ND needs to build more workers at the borders of ND to send them as citizens into the core to join them into cities with less corruption
Zayxus: Bonigo could grow more quickly, to build workers nonstop
vondrack: you mean you'd need our workers to join your city?
Zayxus: in cities with many citizens 1 luxury can enjoy and bring to work 1 citizen in _many_ cities of big size.... I just try to calculate
Zayxus: Either the cities at the borders grow more quickly as first step, or (and) the cities in the core get more citizens
Zayxus: the more citizens, the longer it takes to grow for a city.
vondrack: well, whatever - if you prefer our workers to actually work for you, cool. If you prefer them joining your cities, ok, too.
vondrack: just put everything together and formulate a solid proposal
vondrack: we will be happy to discuss (and probably agree to) it
Zayxus: in the first step: I would prefer improving Bonigo by irrigation
Zayxus: Perhaps there could be a city south of Bonigo in the hills, only producing workers.
Zayxus: But this takes long.
Zayxus: After riflemen ND might need some railways
vondrack: yes, RR will be very important
Zayxus: the ways are a bit long I thought, even for a 3-tiles-move-unit like an Ansar
vondrack: that's right, RR will make everything "round the corner", so to say
Zayxus: would you dare to build a RR at the borders, thinking strategically?
vondrack: at the borders of our territory, or yours?
Zayxus: ... your own's if you had a ROP with your neighbor?
vondrack: well, probably yes
vondrack: the rails do not help that much
vondrack: the first wave still fights as if they were not there
vondrack: I would build the RRs, but make my first line defenses rock solid
Zayxus: At first RR at the core, and that gives more income...
vondrack: yes, the core would be RRed first, that's for sure
Zayxus: In how may turns could Legoland be in the next era?
vondrack: 7 turns, I think
vondrack: you can be there, too
vondrack: all you need is to arrange a deal for ToG
Zayxus: yes, did you already consider an offer?
vondrack: well... I think I made you one few minutes ago
vondrack: ToG + some worker jobs for gems and silks
Zayxus: sounds good
vondrack: alright, what about you specifying what terrain improvements you'd want our workers to do (as part of the deal)?
Zayxus: At first Bonigo.
Zayxus: then Daki and Essigbar: mine in hill or mountian
Zayxus: Bonigo: two grasslands irrigated and one mountain gets a mine
Zayxus: Daki: 1 mine in a hill
Zayxus: Essigbar: two grasslands irrigated and one mountain gets a mine
Zayxus: Daki: could get 2 grasslands irrigated, because I would prefer to irrigate the plains first.
Zayxus: Then for these cities it is the same.
Zayxus: (nearly)
Zayxus: this would be just a list of what could be done as much as it is possible in these 20 turns
vondrack: ok, I think this would be acceptable
Zayxus: (btw: Essigbar is going to be moved 1 tile east to avoid building an aquaduct)
vondrack: alright then... let's do it this way:
vondrack: you give gems for 20 turns + silks for 15 turns (or whatever it is which is not covered by the current outgame deal)
vondrack: we give ToG (no later than with Magnetism) and three workers to do some terrain improvements
vondrack: you PM me a list of tiles/improvements to be done
vondrack: I put everything together and PM you back with a trade agreement draft
vondrack: ok?
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: cool - so I will wait for the list of improvements to be done and then PM you back with a draft
vondrack: and now I am going to get some sleep...
vondrack: take care, Zayxus
vondrack: and see you in a week
Zayxus: you too
vondrack: ok, bye
vondrack: g'night
Zayxus: have a nice weekend
Zayxus: bye
Session Close: Thu Feb 26 23:25:42 2004

[vondrack]

And it looks like ND would really be interested in the deal, as Zayxus sent a draft immediately after the chat (before going to bed):

Hello vondrack!

Here is the Proposal of a deal between ND and Legoland -
thought up in 650AD.
_____________________________________

Legoland offers 3 workers at parallel working for 20 turns.

List of tiles to be improved, as far as possible:

Bonigo:
irrigation in grasslands field SE
irrigation in grasslands field S
mine in the mountians field NW
and roads each

Daki:
irrigation in grasslands field SE
irrigation in grasslands field S
mine in the hills field N-NE
and roads each

Essigbar:
irrigation in grasslands field S-SE (wheat) from the mountain there
irrigation in grasslands field E-SE (wheat) from the mountain there
mine in the hills field N (Gold) from the mountain there
and roads each


for:
- Tech TOG (given no later than with magnetism)
- Gems for 20 turns
- Silks for 15 Turns
from Legoland
________________________________________

Greetings
Zayxus

I have outlined this idea few days ago, but did so in a re-used double-post (see 2 posts above), which most likely made you miss it. It was a bad idea (to re-use the double-post, I mean) - as I forgot to point that post out in the turn thread.

Anyway... we have a deal proposal here. 20+15 turns of luxuries in exchange for ToG and 48 worker turns (that's how long it will take our workers to do the jobs listed in Zayxus' proposal).

I suggest we go for it, for several reasons:

1) the luxuries help to keep our cities in WLTKD, which does wonders to our corruption levels in the big pop 12 cities; especially until we build cathedrals and Sistine
2) ToG is already available from GS, so we better arrange a deal before GS does - we deny profits to GS this way, getting something out of it ourselves
3) we have workers enough (plus Farmerville and Oasis will build workers in 2t) to lay our RR backbone in 5t, so sending three of them to work for ND shall not affect us in a measurable way
4) the workers will also be useful as 'spies', monitoring the coast that is very close to our own territory
5) we cement our good relations with ND, pulling them closer to us and further away from GoW/GS

I would appreciate your comments - the sooner we respond and possibly ratify the trade, the less we risk (though I doubt GS would be eager to trade ToG around at this very moment).

[ZargonX]

I especially like having spy workers