Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Politely reminding ND of the pending deal...

Darekill,

Just to briefly confirm that what I PMed you right after receiving your recent proposal is now official. All we ask for is that 50 gold for the harbour rush is left out and the spice "payment" is postponed until technically feasible.

And thank you for withdrawing Arne prior to having a treaty signed - we appreciate your good will a lot.

Best regards,
vondrack

just like you i have to discuss this first with my team but i guess that this is absolutely fair and agreeable.
I'ts a pleassure to do buissiness with you.
I'll stay in contact and tell you as soon as i can make the deal official. You can tell your team that we will probably agree to the conditions you mentioned. Please tell me if you have their official response.

Sincerly Darekill
Consul of Neu Demogyptica

[vondrack]

And here is Darekill's response:

Darekill,

Just to briefly confirm that what I PMed you right after receiving your recent proposal is now official. All we ask for is that 50 gold for the harbour rush is left out and the spice "payment" is postponed until technically feasible.

And thank you for withdrawing Arne prior to having a treaty signed - we appreciate your good will a lot.

Best regards,
vondrack

just like you i have to discuss this first with my team but i guess that this is absolutely fair and agreeable.
I'ts a pleassure to do buissiness with you.
I'll stay in contact and tell you as soon as i can make the deal official. You can tell your team that we will probably agree to the conditions you mentioned. Please tell me if you have their official response.

Sincerly Darekill
Consul of Neu Demogyptica

Thank you Vondrack,

then it is a deal!

My People agreed to your proposal.
Arne is on it's way home again and we expect your offer of Theology in the next turn then.

You'll get your spice as soon as it is possible.

Your friend
Darekill.

[Kloreep]

Shall we contact ND with an Edu proposal soon?

We could discuss a second "get spices out of ND free" card if they have trouble paying us in cash only; they must have upgraded at least some horses to Ansars, so they may be a little short in their treasury right now.

[vondrack]

Contacting ND is a good idea. Do we have anyone assigned as an ambassador to them or shall I do it myself?

[Kloreep]

I think Jack was the ambassador, and I haven't seen him around in a while.

I suggest we start with a price of 225 to 250 gold, but make sure to mention the luxury option in the first PM/chat as well.

[Tiberius]

How much does actually 20 turns of spice worth, in your opinion?

[Kloreep]

My opinion: What the market will bear. Seriously, though; from what we've heard, it seems GoW managed to set tech prices low in the early game singlehandedly! Other teams followed suit because they didn't want to lose out. (It may have been a very wise move on GoW's part, as they now seem to be commerce-poor and having a precedent for cheap tech sales is good for them.)

Viewing it from our side, the equivalent luxury money that would be needed to produce the same effect as a lux is 260 gold. (13 cities * 20 turns.) However, viewing it from their side, surplus spices do nothing for them if they aren't sold.

The only precedent here is that ND gave us more than spices for Theo: they also gave us a no-Sistine. (Plus NAP and withdrawing Arne, but the NAP balances out and Arne was more of a goodwill gesture IMO; I think they would probably have withdrawn him anyway.) Since Edu is more expensive, and we've been selling it for somewhere over 200 gold, I'd say we could request at least 50 gold in addition to the spices. Perhaps not more; we need to keep in mind that ND is the last team we're selling to (perhaps second-to-last), and may already be exploring alternate deals with GoW and/or GS.

If ND doesn't want to give up the gold immediately, we could do a 10 gold + 2 gpt deal or something similiar. Or just drop it to 2 gpt.

[Tiberius]

Wow, a 24 hours turn for the Arabs. This is so very-unlike ND. Let's see what comes.

[ZargonX]

Ok, quick rundown of some recent diplomacy:

-In the ISDG chat yesterday, the events on Bob came up (of course), with Togas and Master Zen arguing about the gifting of the cities to GS. MZ accused RP of trying to hand the game to GS, which Togas sort of agreed with, saying they were doing it out of spite. MZ asked why they didn't give cities to us, to which Togas poitned out that they offered, we refused. MZ essentially pleaded that if they give more cities away, to at least give them to Lego so as to keep GS in check, somewhat. Togas said that they were willing, but it was basically up to us (Lego) to change our minds. I said I would be agreeable to it, personally (playing "good-cop", trying to keep them from doign any more spiteful things), and that I would talk to the team about it.

So. of course, there is still the issue of our agreement with ND. MZ pointed out that ND's situation has changed, and they may WANT us on Bob now. Kloreep and I talked about it, and I contacted Darekill requesting a chat to discuss recent events, with the hopes that we can bring up the no-Bob clause and perhaps work ourselves out of it, once we explain the situation.

Now, I know some of you aren't thrilled by the idea of us having cities on Bob, but think about it this way: would you rather we have 1 or 2 wastefull cities, or that GS have 4 or 5 cities, with a big foothold on Bob?

Anyway, the main point of this is, Darekill said he'd be available for chatting around 19:00 GMT. Unfortunatley, I will still be at work. So, if Vondrack or Kloreep could try and be around, that'd be a good thing Basically, just explain the situation to them, get their assessment of how things are going, and see what we can work out.

[vondrack]

OK, I will try to be around (no problem, I think).

[Tiberius]

If I understood it correctly, ND conquered one of the cities gifted by RP to GS, so why would they accept us receiving cities from RP?

[ZargonX]

Because, if they end up at war with GS over the situation, they probably won't want RP just handing cities over to GS on Bob. Thus, the situation has changed

[Tiberius]

My point was that ND will continue to occupy RP cities, gifted or not. It won't stop them if RP will gift them to GS or to us. I don't think it makes any difference who is receiving the cities, from ND's PoV. ND wants the cities for themselves, otherwise they wouldn't have started the war. They won't accept us taking RP cities, unless we promise to gift them later to ND, and we can't do that.

Besides they are empty anyway (when you gift them), and empty cities won't help GS too much against ND, should they fight against each other.

So my opinion is still to stay out of the city gifting business. I still can't see any profit in it.

[vondrack]

I have finally been able to meet with Darekill this evening. Here goes the chatlog... I apologize if I went too far, but I felt that for this chat to be of any use, it was time to stop being overly cautious and start talking yes, yes, no, no. I basically relayed what we briefly discussed in the new thread on our general policy.

Session Start: Mon Jul 28 20:45:22 2003
Session Ident: #nd_chat

opening pleasantries left out

[ND]Darekill: Vondrack you want to know what's going on on borconia i supose?
[ND]Darekill: So the facts are we are at war with RP and are allied with GoW
vondrack: right, that's how it looks from the outside, too
[ND]Darekill: RP faced they can't take it up with both of us and choose to invite GS into the party.
vondrack: right, that we also know
vondrack: watching it on CNN every turn
[ND]Darekill: Now is GoW a bit scared about facing GS in war and choose not to be overly active
vondrack: umm, not a good news
[ND]Darekill: which leaves us to wonder if they just want to sit there and lean back and watch while GS gets stronger and stronger.
[ND]Darekill: It is obvious that we cannot face GS and RP.
vondrack: understood
[ND]Darekill: Aother problem is the pervert tactics that RP chooses.
[ND]Darekill: it is one thing that we attacked them which we frankly admit.
[ND]Darekill: We had our reasons.
vondrack: sure, this is basically a very cruel game
vondrack: no problem with that
vondrack: little love between us and RP
[ND]Darekill: But we think they exploit the game mechanics by teleporting their troops form their cities to their capitol
vondrack: hm, even if I agreed (which I would) with this, it is too late to "outlaw" this trick
vondrack: GS is using it, too
vondrack: Voxes have used it recently, too
vondrack: ugly, but effective
[ND]Darekill: didnt wittnes that. did you?
NeMeSiS: thats bad
vondrack: we can only guess, but the guess is well backed with save/map observations
vondrack: (that was re: GS)
vondrack: Voxes - that was part of the plan to move them to Legos Minor
vondrack: without having to build too much of a navy
[ND]Darekill: now i see!
[ND]Darekill: That whole Voxodus **** starts making sense now.
vondrack: we have reasons to believe that GS is pulling their forces
vondrack: from Northern Stormia to Eye of the Storm
vondrack: quite possibly preparing for an invasion onto Bob
[ND]Darekill: We have just seen troops of GS in Spain.
vondrack: yes, Voxodus was a grand plan - and it has been successfully carried out, Voxes are now in their new home
vondrack: hopefully becoming a valuable ally in the long run
vondrack: but not immediately
[ND]Darekill: the Problem is that we have to do something before GS gets to strong.
vondrack: agreed
[ND]Darekill: they have already a big continent for themselves.
[ND]Darekill: but unlike you for example they still try to expand agressively
vondrack: their landmass is not that big
vondrack: they can't win from there (only)
NeMeSiS: they already have cities elsewhere
[ND]Darekill: they came to us with a plan to assist us in slaughtering RP for the cost of three Citys.
vondrack: ?????
vondrack: my Lord!
[ND]Darekill: Yes it was before the war started.
vondrack: ah, I see - that makes sense
[ND]Darekill: We didn't like this so we did not accept. now see what happened.
[ND]Darekill: they have a real easy policy.
[ND]Darekill: accept what we want or face the consequences.
vondrack: did they say what they wanted?
vondrack: those three cities?
vondrack: have they made any claims?
[ND]Darekill: They told us they assist us if they get three spanish citys.
[ND]Darekill: We refused.
vondrack: I mean - have GS set any conditions to not intervene on behalf of RP now?
[ND]Darekill: I think they plot against you too.
[ND]Darekill: the next thing they asked us was an alliance against
[ND]Darekill: guess who?
vondrack: Lux Invincta!
[ND]Darekill: not exactly
[ND]Darekill: They are after everyone who is in their way.
[ND]Darekill: and this means Lego too.
vondrack: ummm... everybody is basically after everybody else... that is the nature of this game
vondrack: it is just a matter of timing
vondrack: my friend in 10AD may be my sworn enemy at 1000AD
[ND]Darekill: Until now I thought you would be quite content with the little island that you call home
vondrack: and that's correct
vondrack: but we had a very unique starting position
vondrack: not GS' case
vondrack: we do not really need to expand unless someone grows too big elsewhere
vondrack: or, we think so
vondrack: GS on Stormia is okay with us
vondrack: 3-civ Bob is okay with us
vondrack: everything else is a problem
[ND]Darekill: We think that GS will be a massive problem in the future.
NeMeSiS: well GS will be able to expand agressivly on borconia now
[ND]Darekill: what about a two civ borconia?
vondrack: though, the least of a problem is a 2-civ (GoW+ND) Bob
vondrack: much better than anything else
vondrack: it also depends on how the borders would be drawn
vondrack: between you and GoW
[ND]Darekill: You know we thought this would all be a great experiment.
vondrack: ?
[ND]Darekill: There were Warmongers
[ND]Darekill: Builders.
[ND]Darekill: Foreigners.
[ND]Darekill: and so on.
[ND]Darekill: We tried to play the proud and honest but warlike people here.
vondrack: I think I personally understand you very well
vondrack: but it's not how the game turned out to be...
[ND]Darekill: Now it turns out to get into and powerplay with intrigues more than can be count.
vondrack: right
[ND]Darekill: that is what i say.
[ND]Darekill: I do not like it that way.
vondrack: it's all about winning now
* vondrack sighs
vondrack: me neither
vondrack: but then, what can we do about it?
vondrack: too many people play this game to win
vondrack: we did something that was not very victory-driven by saving Voxes
vondrack: after failing to save Lux Invicta
[ND]Darekill: We could at least try to find some one who does not agree to the win at all cost game.
vondrack: do you have any plan?
[ND]Darekill: I still think that some of the GoW has the idea of living in peace with us.
[ND]Darekill: Up to know they treated us with respect and were reliable.
vondrack: I have always felt they were true allies of yours
vondrack: yes
vondrack: judging from what they said to us about you
vondrack: they are honest with you
[ND]Darekill: So we trusted them but if they do not take some action soon we don't know if we were right.
vondrack: did they explain their reasons to not attack GS?
vondrack: see - we had a big chat with them
vondrack: after the first RP-to-GS city transfer
vondrack: trying to assess where we stood at that time
vondrack: we explained that we actually stood (and had to stand) - ASIDE
[ND]Darekill: Hmm.. they did not tell us about that they just told us not to take Santiago.
[ND]Darekill: We could not do this if we wanted to keep our role which we still want to play.
vondrack: let me explain our position a bit, ok?
[ND]Darekill: Ok. go ahead.
vondrack: at that moment, all we could have done was to exert diplomatic pressure on GS to stay away from Bob
vondrack: but we knew that any hostile action from you or GoW against GS would trigger their invasion
vondrack: the only hope for a "diplomatic" solution was to leave the two gifted cities be
vondrack: once those would be conquered from GS
vondrack: or one of them
vondrack: GS would intervene militarily
vondrack: that we knew...
vondrack: so we were hoping to make it clear to GS that we did not want
vondrack: them to get involved in the Bobian war any more
vondrack: alas... you took Santiago and that become a moot point
vondrack: not that I would consider that a bad move
vondrack: but it actually prevented us from doing anything
vondrack: since GS had their "reason" to intervene
vondrack: now, for our stance:
vondrack: 1) right now, we do not have navy, nor army to make any difference militarily on Bob
vondrack: we are quite capable of defending our homeland
vondrack: but ultimately unable to intervene anywhere else
[ND]Darekill: We are aware of this.
vondrack: we understand that this is a big problem
vondrack: and we are fully aware of that we have to change that
vondrack: right before coming here
vondrack: I have posted on this topic
vondrack: responding to the "call" of our President, ZargonX
vondrack: we are switching to a much more militarily oriented economy
vondrack: still, we will need at least 15-20 turns to put together a force that could help anyone against GS
[ND]Darekill: I'm glad you see the things this way.
[ND]Darekill: And we understand your position.
vondrack: let me make one thing clear, please:
vondrack: we are NOT going to assist you in dismantling the RP empire
vondrack: that is your own business
vondrack: but we WILL intervene and support you even militarily if things get rough for you and GoW on the GS front
vondrack: for the moment, we can offer only non-military aid... and not all that much of it
vondrack: perhaps the only notable item would be Astronomy
vondrack: that would allow your vessels to navigate through sea tiles
vondrack: making it easier to reach Stormia undetected
vondrack: though, I have no idea if this would be helpful or not
vondrack: we are now working on some sort of a schedule
vondrack: that would put us into a more power-projecting position
vondrack: putting together a navy and an expeditionary force
vondrack: capable of intervening overseas
vondrack: but 15-20 turns is the minimum we will need
vondrack: so, our semi-official (though confidential) position is:
vondrack: if you and GoW get into troubles against GS, we want to be ready to help you
vondrack: as we see extensive GS presence on Bob as a long-term threat
vondrack: they are playing to win, that's clear
[ND]Darekill: no doubt that we all do play to win in a way but not necesairily by military means
vondrack: right

[vondrack]

Part II:

[ND]Darekill: so I can tell you that we really like the things you told us.
NeMeSiS: sounds all pretty good
[ND]Darekill: ND has no interst to invade Legoland or Estonia.
vondrack: right... that's our policy, too
[ND]Darekill: We wanted our share of Borconia thats it.
vondrack: no invasions overseas
[ND]Darekill: We wanted respect and honor.
vondrack: but you see... for GS, that would mean giving up their chance to win
vondrack: Stormia is too small to allow for a peaceful victory
vondrack: so it is understandable they want to expand
vondrack: but... hell... we do not have to be happy about them expanding
NeMeSiS: yes but the question is if we should do something against it
NeMeSiS: or if we can
[ND]Darekill: We definitely don't want them on Borconia.
vondrack: hm... I guess this will soon become less of a question and more of an answer... we will HAVE to do something
[ND]Darekill: That is absolutely clear now i think.
vondrack: do you have any idea about the economy of GS?
[ND]Darekill: My only concern is that GoW trys to sneak out of this war.
[ND]Darekill: I think GS is building up a huge warmachine now
vondrack: I think they are desperately waiting for assurances of support
vondrack: from us, perhaps
vondrack: yes, they are (GS)
vondrack: repeat: do you have any idea about the economy of GS?
vondrack: about its power?
[ND]Darekill: I think it is quite powerful
vondrack: I am not trying to GET information, just checking how much you know...
[ND]Darekill: I watch Sir Ralph building up moty.
[ND]Darekill: I know enogh to tell that we don't know but fear the worst.
vondrack: their economy power is - rough estimate - 25-30% above ours ATM
vondrack: and ours is slightly higher than yours, even when you are in your GA
[ND]Darekill: Hmm. I guess that is probably correct.
vondrack: the estimate is based upon the number of GS pop points and number of available tiles
vondrack: the good news is that they are working almost everything they can
vondrack: they cannot expand too much anymore
vondrack: almost every single tile of the Southern half of Stormia is fully improved now
vondrack: and worked, too
[ND]Darekill: that is why GoW is so afraid. That is why we are afraid too.
[ND]Darekill: but we rather fight and die then to duck and cover
vondrack:
vondrack: right
[ND]Darekill: We have seen their map.
vondrack: yeah, they sold it to everybody
vondrack: at least that's what they told us
[ND]Darekill: probably to show us how strong they are.
vondrack: hmmm... that did work, did it not?
[ND]Darekill: they want to bully us. and that is exactly why we did take Santiago.
vondrack: understood
[ND]Darekill: Our hope is to forge an big aliance .
vondrack: what will be the goal of this alliance?
[ND]Darekill: GoW , you and maybe later Vox too.
[ND]Darekill: There is only one goal.
[ND]Darekill: Cut GS back to size.
Zayxus: goal: to keep GS on it's continent.
vondrack: and after it is cut to size?
[ND]Darekill: then it ends
vondrack: see, this may be a problem
[ND]Darekill: GoW and ND may try to share Borconia.
vondrack: if you (ND) conquer all of RP
[ND]Darekill: there is one thing one vision that i have!
vondrack: you will become the clear candidate for the 1st place
vondrack: and that's unlikely to make everyone else happy
[ND]Darekill: I'm not aiming for that.
vondrack: vision?
[ND]Darekill: Imagin the following.
[ND]Darekill: We forge that alliance now and succeed.
[ND]Darekill: Legoland will have its Land.
[ND]Darekill: It is pretty large.
[ND]Darekill: Vox has already de facto lost it's game.
Zayxus: right there is much free land, to be settled.
[ND]Darekill: GS will be cut to size and sit on it's continent.
[ND]Darekill: After we had put much fate in each other in that great aliance we will not battle each other anymore.
vondrack: do we call the game then?
[ND]Darekill: We will end this game peacefully claiming to have formed a peaceful multinational Community.
[ND]Darekill: Call me a dreamer if you want. but this would be just great.
vondrack: what if GS does not agree?
[ND]Darekill: they probably won‘t agree.
Zayxus: that is the point now
vondrack: I mean - I perfectly understand your dream/plan and I like it
[ND]Darekill: But how big are their chances of another invasion when they know they had to face all of us?
vondrack: but we will need more than me and you to make it happen
[ND]Darekill: How succesful could any invasion be after Railroads are built?
vondrack: true
[ND]Darekill: It's just a vision.
vondrack: where does GoW stand in this dream?
[ND]Darekill: I think they would like it.
vondrack: I mean - what part of Bob would they get?
NeMeSiS: I‘m very sorry but I have to leave now
[ND]Darekill: If they had their fair share of Borconia of course.
vondrack: ok, bye!
Zayxus: GoW as our neighbors
NeMeSiS: cu
Zayxus: cu
* NeMeSiS has quit IRC (Quit: )
[ND]Darekill: They call themselves Warmongers but we found thea are not so up to that like they say.
vondrack: LoL
Zayxus: indeed
Zayxus: by the facts
[ND]Darekill: actualy they talked with us about such plans.
vondrack: hmmm... these grand plans used to involve getting rid of Lego, too, IIRC...
[ND]Darekill: Now you might ask me why did RP fit not in this plan.
vondrack: actually
vondrack: I would not ask
vondrack: I think I know why
vondrack: we have had our own share of "experience" with RP
[ND]Darekill: *g*
[ND]Darekill: Well GoW had plans concerning Lego i admit that.
vondrack: I know... I have no problems with that
[ND]Darekill: But they were far fetched and they needed the asistance of GS which they surely do not have now.
[ND]Darekill: BTW. I do think you are well prepared to stirke back any invasion.
vondrack: yes, I believe we are
[ND]Darekill: You could only be endangered by a very big oponent or an ailliance of many smaller oponents.
vondrack: yes
vondrack: well... can we focus on one point that is particularly important for Lego, please?
vondrack: ...the point: the after-war division of Bob between you and GoW
vondrack: we would like to know what is the plan regarding the current territory of RP
[ND]Darekill: Yes i see.
[ND]Darekill: Well there is a map that is accepted as fair by us and GoW but it is secret and I am not allowed to tell you about it.
vondrack: alright, that's all I need to know, I believe
vondrack: if both of you consider it fair, it is likely to be really fair
[ND]Darekill: may it suffice that not all the ND cities will necessarily remain ND cities in the future.
vondrack: yes, that is what I was thinking about...
vondrack: ok
vondrack: that suffices
[ND]Darekill: We tried to do something to arrange with RP too but you would not believe what they thought would be a fair solution.
vondrack: I... ahem.. WOULD... believe
vondrack: their sense of 'fair' is from another world
vondrack: I cannot remember a single good deal with them
[ND]Darekill: Now your talking
vondrack: actually... one... but it was a very good deal for them, too
vondrack: so that does not count, I guess )
[ND]Darekill: Well we have not forgoten to gift you spices.
vondrack:
vondrack: few more turns to Astronomy
vondrack: then it will be time
[ND]Darekill: So if you could give us Astronomy we would pay for it of course.
vondrack: I am fairly confident we will be able to work out some deal on Astronomy
[ND]Darekill: Another thing I want to mention.
vondrack: yes?
[ND]Darekill: GoW is building the GL still.
vondrack: it's just a prebuild, is it not?
[ND]Darekill: they are likely to switch soon.
vondrack: right
[ND]Darekill: I fear they might go for Sistine.
vondrack: do not worry about that
vondrack: that's is our business
[ND]Darekill: alright.
[ND]Darekill: good.
vondrack: now - what about a three-team chat?
vondrack: you, us, and GoW?
vondrack: to make things clear
vondrack: to set goals etc.
[ND]Darekill: wait just another turn.
vondrack: ok
[ND]Darekill: As soon as GoW is ingame in war with RP and GS we can have that chat.
vondrack: ok, I will wait for your PM
vondrack: once you think it's time, just let me know
[ND]Darekill: You could pm me if you see that this happened.
vondrack: ok
[ND]Darekill: We trust you in this. Don't think you would lie.
vondrack: ok, then
[ND]Darekill: I like doing buissiness with you.
vondrack:
vondrack: me too
vondrack: less "politics", more common sense
vondrack: it's been a pleasure for me today
vondrack: may I post this chatlog in our forum?
vondrack: or shall I post just a summary?
[ND]Darekill: I#ll give you the chatlog.
vondrack: I do have it
[ND]Darekill: good.
vondrack: I just thought I would ask you if you are ok with me posting it in our team forum
[ND]Darekill: Just don't sell it to other Nations.
vondrack:
vondrack: of course
vondrack: very well, then
[ND]Darekill: Especially I would not be pleased if RP or GS would have it
vondrack: I am looking forward to more chats with you
Zayxus: I enjoy it very much to chat here.
vondrack: and I hope we will be able to get together easier next time
Zayxus: that I hope as well
vondrack: if you need to talk any time, just PM me - I am usually sitting at my computer
[ND]Darekill: Yes could not be bad to build up some more trust between us.
vondrack: definitely
vondrack: we have built a very strong relationship between us and Voxes
vondrack: and I believe we could do the same with you
vondrack: we seem to be sharing the overall point of view at the game
[ND]Darekill: all right then it's getting late.
vondrack: yup
vondrack: good night!
vondrack: see you soon
[ND]Darekill: good night we'll stay in contact.
Zayxus: good night
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Mon Jul 28 22:15:26 2003