Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

I would resort to medinfs only if the war goes really wrong. They are too slow and too vulnerable - besides, we already have several of them. Even if it takes a couple more turns, I would really go for knights only.

[Sharpe]

I was thinking about MedInfs more for home defense - with the railroads coming soon, the minus 1 defense is their only major downside they would have versus knights (unless roads/railroads were cut).

[vondrack]

And one more bit of info from Darekill:

Just a question - looking at the shots more closely, I have noticed that the one with Zaragoza in Spanish hands shows no defenders. Is that right after you killed the very last one? Or did they evacuate
the city completely? Just curious...

We killed in the last turn four Pikes and Three Med. Infs.
The Rest of those spanish guy had their noses stuffed I guess so they ran and left Zaragoza undefendet.
Now they gathered what they still had and try to retake Leon I guess...

[redstar1]

In response to Tibi's shock.... Greenwich is indeed in London and it is the meridian where all time is taken from, however in the UK we move to BST for a while to help farmers and things like that, make best use of the daylight....which is why London is not on GMT

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
I was thinking about MedInfs more for home defense - with the railroads coming soon, the minus 1 defense is their only major downside they would have versus knights (unless roads/railroads were cut).

Ummm, Steve, railroads are not "coming soon"... we are barely halfway through the medieval period. Also, by the time railroads appear, our fast attackers will already be upgraded to cavalry, which is +2 attack and +1 defense over medinf.

Plus, after we enter the industrial era, we'll soon have access to riflemen (upgraded defenders), which are as fine attackers as medinfs are, with a rock-solid defense as an added benefit.

Medinf is an acceptable way not to have to scrap all your swordsmen, but building them from scratch makes sense only if your economy is too weak to produce the more shield-costly knights, or if you are lacking horses.

[lmtoops]

At this point in the game, I rarely build any med. infantry. True, they are cheaper, but for good reason. Poor defense and not mobile.

I think we should stick with knight, catapults, pike, and more knights.

[Tiberius]

For the record:
We are now strong vs. ND and strong vs. RP, so a major battle should have taken place at Leon, with lots of casualtes on both sides. Leon is still on ND's hands, so that's good news. RP are probably toast, without iron and horses from now on, and continue pressure fromn ND. It will be GS to fight from now on. Let's see how well GoW can handle the situation and how quickly ND can rebuild its army.

Hopefully our troops will arrive in time. We don't have too much time. GS is still stronger than us.

Oh, and btw: I'm all for knights.

[Tiberius]

If ND can secure the area west of the Leon - Santiago line we could send with the first or second galley a couple of workers to help improve the area (Santiago, Fort Dreizack, etc).

[vondrack]

A message from NeMeSiS:

Dear Vondrack,

As the ND Embassador in Legoland, its a great honor for me to tell you that your offer to land troops on Borconia has been unanimous accepted by the parliament of ND.

NeMeSiS,

ND Embassador in Legoland

My response:

Dear NeMeSiS,

It will be an honour for us to fight alongside your brave soldiers.

We hope you have not suffered crippling casualties at Leon on the last but one turn (we noticed that your military rating went from average to weak vs. ours - and we did very little on our side to help it... just upgraded one horse, I think.

Our first expeditionary troops (1 elite knight + 2 vets) should - if everything goes according to the current plan - sail off in 5 turns from Zargonia. Then ~5-7 turns to land, depending on where the troops will be heading. The other group (3 vet knights) will land in the North, near Trafalgar, ~5 turns later (~15 turns from now). That's the fastest we can make it.

Good luck until then.

vondrack
FAM of Legoland

[vondrack]

Darekill PMed with the following message:

Hello, Darekill!

Just to briefly let you know that we shall be posting a public announcement about our support of the new Voxian settlements on Legos Minor. It is something that has been planned for and promised to Vox a long time ago and basically says nothing else but that they are under our protection (which, ATM, means very little, as nobody is threatening them) and that anybody messing with them will have to mess with us, too. Who knows, if we are lucky, we may confuse the GS strategists a little bit regarding Lego current 'urgent' business and short-term goals.

You can safely ignore the announcement, it is not meant to threaten ND in any way, as we very well know your eyes are focused elsewhere...

Best regards,
vondrack

[vondrack]

This was the chat last Thursday - I am posting it here rather than in the Operation Glorious Plastic thread, since only Darekill & Zayxus showed up, making it a Lego-ND chat only.

Session Start: Thu Jan 08 21:29:14 2004
Session Ident: #gow
* Now talking in #gow
* Topic is 'GoW Chat: Who are we going to backstab today? '
* Set by MasterZen on Sun Jan 04 08:21:19
vondrack: hello!
Zayxus: hi vondrack!
vondrack: cool! here you are...
vondrack: is there a chat tonight?
Zayxus: me and Darekill up to now
vondrack: I have got out of the habit... haven't had an alliance chat since early Xmas...
vondrack: ah - so nobody from GoW?
Darekill: i don't know but since you are here I'd say....yes?!
vondrack: lol
vondrack: good point
vondrack: how's the situation on Bob?
vondrack: we can see no more GS/RP cities there
vondrack: have they gone for good?
Darekill: Yes.
Zayxus: ah, this is correct.
Darekill: We started gifting citys
vondrack: Wow. Means the war is actually won.
Zayxus: GS destroyed the 2 cities at the east
Zayxus: Right, war is won.
vondrack: Congrats to you, guys - it was an impressive campaign!
Zayxus: thank you
Darekill: Well we are kind of proud but....
vondrack: but?
Darekill: it did cost a lot.
Zayxus: did cost development
vondrack: oh, I can imagine that (waging war in an individual PBEM of mine)
Darekill: we have almost no libraries only a few marketplaces and a weak infrastructure
Zayxus: a lot of jungle
Darekill: but a hell of a lot of jungle to clear.
vondrack: well, as for jungle... we could talk about that - we have enough, too
vondrack: but we are quite likely doing better infrastructure-wise
Darekill: at least we have some luxury and some very angry spanish citizens
vondrack: lol
vondrack: yes
vondrack: since Aggie is not here, I guess I will have to work the details of our withdrawal from Bob via PMs with him
vondrack: I assume the time is getting close that we will no longer be needed there
Zayxus: seems so
vondrack: we would prefer withdrawing through your territory, since we have a *cough* WORKING RoP with you
vondrack: unlike with GoW...
vondrack: the infamous "one-way RoP" bug
Darekill: :g:
Zayxus: but Lego troops could stay on neutral territory at the east?
vondrack: well, they could... but what good would they be there?
vondrack: do you see any benefit in keeping them there?
Zayxus: scouts
vondrack: ah, scouts...
Darekill: I can't see it.
Darekill: You can stay if you want but you are free to leave too.
Zayxus: just some to show presence
vondrack: however ridiculous this may sound after our involvement in the recent war, we are not really interventionists...
vondrack: so once we are no longer needed, we will slowly head for home
vondrack: I will consult this with Aggie (or MZ, who seems to have replaced him recently), too
vondrack: btw... have you aligned yourself with someone research-wise? I mean... any tech deals pre-arranged?
Zayxus: all right, use of ND territory is granted
vondrack: glad to hear that, thanks a lot
Darekill: we are talking to gow.
Darekill: and you of course.
vondrack: well... afaik, you are doing PP now, right?
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: that tech we are getting from Vox... how long before you finish your research?
Zayxus: 10 turns left
Zayxus: slowly...
vondrack: I can imagine that... would not make sense to do it faster than in 40 turns
vondrack: but you will have loads of luxuries
vondrack: I hope we will be able to do some fine trading - techs or gold for lux
Zayxus: on the territory there are various luxuries
vondrack: is there any tech you would be particularly interested in right now?
Zayxus: hmmmm. banking for more money?
Darekill: banking would be fine.
vondrack: I have to admit I have almost no mandate from my team regarding tech deals today - but that's because we have very little idea what could be on the negotiating table
vondrack: so banking it would be, right?
Zayxus: for me , yes
Darekill: to be honest ND is almost completely in this chatroom so yes.
vondrack: lol - the two of you are running ND now?
Darekill: z is I'm only suporting him...
vondrack: the game is getting a bit... old, I would say
vondrack: it's been over a year now
Darekill: right.
vondrack: only the most persistent individuals still hold the flag...
Darekill: I think no team has much more then four or five active players anymore.
vondrack: true
Zayxus: could there be peace for the next 100 turns?
Darekill: with whom?
vondrack: ooooohhh, that would be awesome
Zayxus: with all
vondrack: with everybody
Darekill: from my point of view yes.
Zayxus: would make playing turns pretty easy...
Darekill: we need 100 turns to build up a empire.
vondrack: anyway... back to that banking deal... what would you expect the price to be (to make it affordable for you)?
Zayxus: what is the way to calculate it?
vondrack: perhaps, if you are as unprepared for this as I am... you might think this over and PM me or we can talk next week
vondrack: forget calculations
Zayxus: I assume, it could be the sum of about 1500 Gold in the sum
Darekill: we almost owe you a lot of lux...
vondrack: yeah, some luxes, right...
Zayxus: that is better
Darekill: no problems wirth luxury. We may be able to add some money too.
vondrack: see, we are not really expecting to get anything based upon the "beaker cost"...
vondrack: that might have been the case earlier in the game
Darekill: we are building marketplaces and we'll soon have a fp...
vondrack: glad to hear that, a stable Bob is what we have always been looking foward to
vondrack: ok, let's do it like this... I tell my mates (yes, there still are some that you'd be considering a deal on Banking
vondrack: I understand that you have luxuries and might put together some cash
vondrack: I will see what we could do about that
Darekill: fine.
vondrack: from a discussion two or three weeks ago, I'd say that we are neither eager to sell our tech(s) off, nor keen on keeping them to ourselves
vondrack: and more than the price... the, say, "strategic value" will be of a key importance
Zayxus: of cause
vondrack: Banking itself might be available for purchase - it would be the matter of your future research routes (and possible tech deals) affecting our willingness to strike a deal with you
vondrack: either way, we would be happy to start dealing with you directly - not through GoW, as it used to be in the past
Zayxus: please
Darekill: I'd like to go now.
vondrack: they are a good broker, but still... we'd appreciate maintaining the contacts
vondrack: me too
vondrack: take care, both of you
Zayxus: thank you
vondrack: and - see you next week, perhaps?
Darekill: good we'll keep the contact.
Zayxus: of course
Darekill: fine with me.
vondrack: ok, see you then
Zayxus: bye
Darekill: bye
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Thu Jan 08 21:58:58 2004

Note that Darekill & Zayxus agreed to let LEF withdraw through their territory and showed quite some interest in trading for Banking.

[vondrack]

As mentioned in the turnplan thread, I am thinking of trading Banking to ND. They are the "safest" buyer from our perspective, since their current research project (PP) is still ~10 turns from completion. Even if they start researching Economics immediately afterwards, they have no way to complete the research faster than us. Actually, they are quite unlikely to be able to discover Economics before we finish Adam Smith's in Legopolis (that's important for the unlikely case that ND had a GL, "saving" him for AS - but if you read between the lines in the chat, I suspect they are going to use the GL they assumingly got during the assault at Pamplona to build their FP).

So, I would be thinking about an initial offer of 250g plus 20t of a future luxury supply (after their current luxury obligations are fulfilled) for Banking. Considering the tech costs ~1250 beakers, that would be 20% of the nominal research cost in gold plus the future luxury supply. In case they do not take it right away, I would go as low as 150g + the luxury, considering the luxury part the only part that really matters. We can live w/o the gold, generating enough of it ourselves, but luxuries are our everlasting problem.

Another idea (perhaps even better than asking a lump sum) would be to go for a gpt deal - say, 13gpt negotiable down to some 8gpt. Not a big difference from our point of view, but we would make sure they do not research fast enough to be any competition for us, while improving our own research potential a bit at the same time.

What do you think? I would like to hear from you so that I could PM Darekill & Zayxus with a firm proposal sometime late Wednesday - they'd have time enough to mull it over, hopefully allowing to close the deal on Thursday evening, where we are supposed to chat again.

[vondrack]

Here goes my chat with Zayxus today:

Session Start: Thu Jan 15 21:13:56 2004
Session Ident: Zayxus
Session Ident: Zayxus (Zayxus@dialin-145-254-114-233.arcor-ip.net)
Zayxus: Darekill seems to be busy
vondrack: I see
vondrack: I have time, though - so we can give him a bit more time
Zayxus: Darekill disappeared from the forum.
vondrack: ah, so shall I go ahead with the offer on Banking?
Zayxus: yes, sure
vondrack: would you be interested in buying Banking for 250 gold + 20 turns of a luxury (delivered some time in the future)?
Zayxus: for me : yes
vondrack: cool then... if you need to consult with the rest of your team, do so - I will send you a formal offer after the chat ends today
Zayxus: right, ND could offer for luxury: gems and after connecting : ivory, which would you prefer?
vondrack: gems would work
Zayxus: Just checked the save: Legoland already gets luxury from ND.
Zayxus: noted: gems.
vondrack: yes, we are getting spices & silks
vondrack: and delivering dyes
Zayxus: would be nice if you sent the formal offer to Darekill and me.
vondrack: will do
vondrack: I believe it would also be good to state that starting with 470AD, the "free sharing" of luxes ends
Zayxus: What means "free sharing"?
Zayxus: What would be new?
vondrack: well, the allied teams (ND, GoW, Lego) were sharing their luxes
vondrack: with no payments
vondrack: now, with the war over and alliance actually being put to an end
vondrack: we should establish "normal" lux trades
vondrack: say: starting from 470AD, we'd be getting one kind of lux (e.g. silks) for our dyes
vondrack: the second lux we'd be getting from you would be a repayment of the gold we gave you during the war
vondrack: IIRC, we are supposed to get twice 20 turns of a luxury for the gold we sent you
Zayxus: Ah, this you offer as deal about luxury, it is changed in the meaning.
vondrack: oh, sorry if I worded it in a confusing way
Zayxus: It is clear.
Zayxus: spices for dyes, gems for tech, 2*20 turns silk for the Gold
vondrack: I'd say this would be fine with us, yes
Zayxus: Darekill was really busy this evening, I got a PM of time 21:20 .
vondrack: no problem
vondrack: I will PM you with the proposal and you can then discuss it
Zayxus: yes , please, thank you, I sent Darekill a PM about it.
Zayxus: We discussed all we needed?
vondrack: yes, I believe so
vondrack: I will PM you and Darekill with a summary
vondrack: trade proposal and the precise route of our troops through your territory
Zayxus: Thank you.
Zayxus: that sounds good
vondrack: good
vondrack: take care, then - and my best regards to Darekill
Zayxus: take care, too.
vondrack: bye
Zayxus: bye
Session Close: Thu Jan 15 22:12:23 2004

[vondrack]

So, considering that Zayxus sounded quite ok with the proposal and nobody objected the idea in this thread, I am PMing him and Darekill with the following proposal:

Legoland-ND Banking trade agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Banking. ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift this tech to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it.

2) ND agrees to provide Legoland with 250 gold* and a 20-turn supply of gems in return.
if you prefer, we can make it a gpt trade, too. 13gpt for 20 turns would work, too - or 10 gold lump sum and 12gpt for 20 turns... or whatever else might suit your needs best

3) The trade shall happen right after the approval of this trade agreement by both parties. The party being the first to play the save shall offer its part of the deal as 'unaccepted'. The other party shall then counter with its part and send the trade back as 'accepted'. Finally, the first party shall accept to complete the deal.

[ZargonX]

Sounds like a fair deal to me. Hopefully it will pass on their end.