Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Hm, the thing is that it is quite uncertain who's next after GS (with Darekill possibly replacing [dg]mav_son, things may get fixed for ND)... and I believe that it will take QUITE some time before GS leave us...

ATM, I would suggest treating ND as an ordinary trading partner.

[Kloreep]

Yes, you're probably right... it isn't certain.

I'd still like us to approach them with a Theology deal. A no-Sistine clause plus 150-200 gold in exchange for Theology?

[ZargonX]

draft PM to Darekill:

Darekill,
I request an urgent meeting with you to discuss your activities on Legos. Please contact me or one of my fellow Legos as soon as possible.

Thank you,
ZargonX

[vondrack]

After talking to ZargonX in the morning, I was assigned the task of negotiating with ND regarding their scout Arne today.

I will be posting all the comms with ND here.

My first PM to Darekill and his response:

Hello, Darekill!

There seems to be an issue that needs to be handled personally, rather than through PMs/email. I am having a trade proposal to discuss with you, but it needs to be discussed today. It seems I am the only online Euro in our team today, so I have been our negotiator this time.

Be so kind, please, and PM me back about the time you and/or your ambassador would be available to meet on IRC (I will be checking my PMbox frequently today).

Thank you very much in advance,
vondrack, VP of Legoland

I'm sorry but i don't have the time today. I've published the PM in our Forum and i hope to find someone to chat with you.

My follow-up:

I'm sorry but i don't have the time today. I've published the PM in our Forum and i hope to find someone to chat with you.

Sorry to hear you have no time today, Darekill.

I hope someone will be able to talk to us, though - the matter really is quite urgent. As you are probably able to figure out yourself, we need to talk about your scout Arne that appeared unexpectedly close to our territory.

Sincerely,
vondrack

[vondrack]

Borc PMed me, offering to chat:

Hi vondrak,

i would have time for a short chat today...
please write me an email to borc@cylusion.com if you have time

we can meet us at www.cylusion.com/neudemogyptica
yours
Borc

My response:

Hello, Borc!

I'd be most happy to have a chat with you. Would it be too impolite if
I asked you to meet me at Apolyton.net? There is a Java based chat
available there, too (http://apolyton.net/misc/chat/room.shtml, so in
case you need to chat using just the browser, that should do (if you
are using mIRC, just connect to Apolyton.net).

At Apolyton.net, I would be able to log the chat, making it easy to
report to the team afterwards (I would also be able to send the log to
you).

I will be hanging in the #Legoland room from now on. Just connect to
Apolyton.net, please, and "/join #Legoland" (there is no password set
at the moment). Once there, say "VONDRACK" (all caps), please - that
will draw my attention to the IRC client I am usually running in the
background only.

Thanks for your prompt response.

Best regards,
vondrack
VP of Legoland

[vondrack]

Great, here goes the log of my chat with Borc:

* Borc has joined #Legoland
Borc: hi vondrack
vondrack: Hello, Borc!
* vondrack sets mode: +o Borc
Borc: i am sitting in my office and it is possible that somebody will disturb me from time to time
vondrack: ok, no problem, I will know what's going on if you need to remain silent for a bit
vondrack: now, to keep you as little as possible, I will go straight to our point, ok?
Borc: so you have seen our scout arne ;-)
vondrack:
vondrack: yup, it was quite a surprise
vondrack: you - apparently by chance - came through a very narrow stripe of land we have under the fog of war
Borc: yes and we saw "alexander", that was his name right?
vondrack: yes, Alexander
Borc: "fog of war"?
vondrack: now, to make it clear - I am speaking here officially for Legoland, even though I am not the President, nor FAM
vondrack: yes, FoW - territory we do not fully "see"
Borc: ok
vondrack: like the territory where barb camp appear...
vondrack: ok, back to what I was saying
vondrack: I have certain limits I need to respect, but I have a certain degree of freedom regarding the trade proposal I am going to make
Borc: i understand
vondrack: I will have to bring whatever we may agree upon back to my team, but as long as it is within the limits I was given, it will be accepted
vondrack: now, for the proposal
vondrack: I have to admit that we are not entirely thrilled with the possibility of Arne charting more of our interior
vondrack: we would very much prefer agreeing on a deal that would involve him leaving and us giving you something in exchange
vondrack: do you think this could be a possibility?
Borc: it is a possibility, yes... anyway i am one of totally 4 ministers which are the government now of ND (darekill, zayxus, zerialienguru and borc)
vondrack: I understand
Borc: so i probably have to contact the other 3 first
vondrack: we can make no "official" deal until approved by your team
vondrack: that's ok
vondrack: I just wanted to know if it's ok to go on with the trade proposal...
Borc: yes, please...
vondrack: now, before I start making offers... is there anything specific you would like to get?
Borc: maybe a map o your continent ;-)
vondrack:
vondrack: hehe
Borc: just i joke, i understand
vondrack: at the moment, here is what we can offer RIGHT NOW: gold & Theology
vondrack: plus
vondrack: we can also discuss future tech deals, of course
vondrack: may I ask you about your current research goal?
vondrack: we are currently researching Education
Borc: our current goal is engineering
vondrack: good, that makes it easier, I guess
Borc: do you have engineering already?
vondrack: would you be interested in trading for Theology?
vondrack: Eng: no, not yet, but we do have a deal prearranged
Borc: arnes withdraw for theology?
vondrack: well, that would be a little bit too cheap perhaps...
vondrack: but you are not that far away
vondrack: here is the idea:
vondrack: in exchange of Arne returning E-E to the coast and sailing back to his beloved homeland
vondrack: we would provide you with Theology for a VERY low price in gold
vondrack: there would be just one more condition
vondrack: I hope it will not be a problem
Borc: yes?
vondrack: I will explain a bit first
vondrack: you probably know that Legoland has only one luxury of its own
vondrack: (Dyes)
vondrack: in order to allow our people live their happy lives
vondrack: we will have to heavily invest into happiness improvements & wonders
Borc: you only have dyes?!
vondrack: yes
Borc: ahh
vondrack: one of the key wonders for us would be the Sistine's Chapel
vondrack: we are trying to arrange deals with other teams
Borc: i understand!
vondrack: allowing us to build this wonder
vondrack: with no competition
vondrack: after all, wonder races are costly for everybody
vondrack: GS lost the race to Pyramids to us by 1 turn only
vondrack: (did you know that?)
Borc: no, waoo!
vondrack: so, here comes the deal in its full:
Borc: ---:[/b] phone call, just one minute...
vondrack: ok
vondrack: I will type the proposal in full now
vondrack: you can read it once you are done with the phone call
Borc: thx
vondrack: in exchange for Arne heading straight back home, we would provide you with Theology for gold and this "no Sistine clause" (as we use to call it)
vondrack: before I go on and say any gold sum
vondrack: may I ask you what you would consider a fair amount to balance this trade?
vondrack: I am trying to make this really a "deal" for you
vondrack: a good one, for that matter
vondrack: lump sum or gpt, whatever you'd prefer
Borc: ---:[/b] ok, phone call ended, i start reading ;-)
vondrack: np, take your time
Borc: for me this deal sounds very interesting, does it also mean we can not ship your coast lines?
vondrack: we would not mind you circumnavigating our landmass - as long as you do not land any units
vondrack: I would even go as far as agreeing to your ships sailing through our territorial waters
Borc: we have seen landmass in the very north - does it belong to "your" continent?
vondrack: as long as your units never set foot on "our" soil
vondrack: probably yes... there are two parts of this landmass, connected with a very narrow isthmus
Borc: northwest of panama, yep
vondrack: yes, that is Legos Minor
vondrack: regarding Legos Minor
Borc: i understand
vondrack: scouting that area would be less of an issue for us, though we would still prefer
vondrack: if you keep just to the water
vondrack: there is one problem with Legos Minor
vondrack: it is heavily infested with barbs
vondrack: so you would not be able to land just a scout
vondrack: since he would be dead in two turns
Borc: right
vondrack: you would have to land a military unit
vondrack: I have to admit I am not authorized to say "it would be ok", but I do not want to say "it would NOT be ok"
vondrack: honestly
vondrack: It would not be worth the hassle
vondrack: the reason why we did not settle that part of our landmass
vondrack: is that it is quite rugged terrain
vondrack: LOTS of mountains
vondrack: very few truly good tiles
Borc: yes we can see a bit there
vondrack: we would like to keep it a "reservation"... sort of...
vondrack: you know - like Yosemite Park...
vondrack: I will tell you something... you may find it amusing
vondrack: when you were warring with Lux Invicta
vondrack: they were heavily negotiating with us
vondrack: for a refuge on Legos Minor
Borc: ahhh :-)
vondrack: but Voxes ended that plan...
vondrack: to be honest
vondrack: we would like to keep that part of our landmass
vondrack: as a refuge for a team that will get "exterminated" next
vondrack: it is a place that does not allow
vondrack: to grow back to a sufficient strength
Borc: so i hope we never will visit that legos minor :-))
vondrack: but decent enough to allow that team stay in the game
Borc: not in this way, haha
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: yes, I will keep my fingers crossed for you
Borc: i have a proposal... we will FREEZE arne for the next turn, so we have a bit time to discuss your very interesting ideas in our neudemogyptian forums, what do you think?
vondrack: that would be acceptable, yes
Borc: i will do my best to tell my people your ideas
Borc: can you make a chat log here?
vondrack: would you like me to send you the chatlog?
vondrack:
vondrack: yes, of course
vondrack: I will send you the log once we are finished here
Borc: YES, wiuld be great! i will post it in my forums and then we will have resluts soon!
vondrack: great
vondrack: I have no idea why we have so little diplo contacts
vondrack: it is a pleasure to talk to you
vondrack: certainly MUCH more pleasure than some other teams...
Borc: you are far away , its a pitty
vondrack: heh, we are far away from just about everything... )
Borc: we have a sandwich position between RP and GoW that keeps us busy :-( with them all the time
vondrack: yes, that's what we figure from the map
vondrack: being the middle one is never the best position
vondrack: we are going along very well with GoW
Borc: yes and i am sure you can see our jungle world
vondrack: yes, we can - we have one of our own on our landmass
vondrack: thanks God we are industrious
Borc: so your relations with GoW are better than with RP?
vondrack: my teammates will scold me for telling you...
vondrack: but yes
Borc: ok, it will stay a secret
vondrack: maybe from the "official" point of view, they are just as fine
vondrack: but I guess you best know how RPers conduct their diplomacy
Borc: and are you involved in the GS-Vox War, we notn but i will have a chat wit zeit from GS tonight
Borc: ---:[/b] sorry phone call again :-/
vondrack: np
vondrack: re: Vox-GS war - no, we are not directly involved
vondrack: though we maintain business relations with both parties
vondrack: which probably helps one or both warring parties
vondrack: as you correctly put it... we are too far away
vondrack: we are not very excited about GS grabbing the whole of Estonia, but it seems quite difficult to prevent that from happening
Borc: ---:[/b] phone call ended
vondrack: ok
vondrack: well, what about this:
vondrack: 1) I send you the chatlog of this conversation
vondrack: 2) I send you a draft of the "trade agreement" involving Arne, Theology, and all the stuff I was talking about
vondrack: I will put no precise gold amount
vondrack: you post everything in your forum and discuss your idea of the fair gold amount
Borc: thats fine! one last question...
vondrack: until we agree on the deal or officialy "disagree", Arne stays put
vondrack: yes?
Borc: would you be interested in a luxury instead of gold
vondrack: theoretically, yes - but there is a major problem
Borc: yes?
vondrack: until we discover Astronomy
vondrack: we are unable to trade over sea tiles
Borc: right, sorry
vondrack: and that's at least 25-30 more turns
Borc: but we should remeber this possibility for the future :-)
vondrack: but I am quite sure we will be able to work out fine deals in the future
vondrack: yes
Borc: and you already have a deal preparing engineering
vondrack: one more curious question...
Borc: yes?
vondrack: yes, we have already signed a deal on Engineering - we are used to sign our tech deals well in advance
vondrack: the question:
vondrack: do you remember our offer on currency?
vondrack: if it is not secret, what made you reject it?
vondrack: we honestly believed it was a win-win deal...
Borc: a long time ago... hm... i take a look in our forum... wait please
vondrack: and were surprised you chose to spend money on the research
vondrack: no problem... I was just curious, don't waste your time
Borc: we had a very good offer for currency... hmm it would be better to tell you the details 1000 years later :-)
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: right
Borc: but it was nothing against you
vondrack: no problem
vondrack: we knew it was nothing against us
vondrack: were just puzzled about your reasoning
vondrack: anyway
vondrack: I am happy we were able to have this chat
vondrack: I am going to send you the log and the trade proposal in written
Borc: i think as soon as possible i tell you the results of our people and then maybe we make a new chat soon
vondrack: that is a great idea!
Borc: hopefully just after the next "freezed" arne-turn
vondrack: I would like to see more contacts between our two civs
vondrack: ok
vondrack: since we are doing lots of business with just about everybody - but you
Borc: at least we both shoudl chat more often now
vondrack: yes
vondrack: I would be happy to become our ambassador to your team
vondrack: our current ambassador...
vondrack: is...
vondrack: rather is not...
vondrack: here, actually
vondrack: last time we saw him months ago, I think
Borc: actually i am the ambassadro fot GoW, GS and now also for Lego as it seems
vondrack: which is a shame for us
vondrack: good!
vondrack:
vondrack: won't keep you any longer then
Borc: yes sorry, but work is work
vondrack: the chatlog will be with you within a few minutes
vondrack: it was a pleasure talking to you
vondrack: have a nice day
Borc: anyway i am sitting in front of my mail and we can have a chat very soon if you write me a mail
vondrack: ok
vondrack: I am working from home
Borc: whenever you want
vondrack: sitting at my comp all the time
vondrack: I check Poly and my email every 10-15 minutes
Borc: ah! you are from which country?
vondrack: Czech Republic
vondrack:
vondrack: close to you, eh?
Borc: great GMT+1 as we are i am from munich
vondrack: yes, it will never be the problem of different timezones...
vondrack: but I am often staying up very late in the night anyway
vondrack: did numerous chats around 4-5am my time
vondrack: when Americans were best available
Borc: Darekill and i we have families and thats why we stand up very early (5-6 asm) :-))))
vondrack: I see
Borc: 5-6 am
Borc: old men
vondrack: I have just a wonderful girlfriend ATM, no kids
vondrack: she wakes up early - usually shortly after I go to bed ))
vondrack: good, back to work now
vondrack: looking forward to talking to you soon again!
Borc: oh, take care! my wife hates civ3 but my son is 8 and he starts playing civ3 already
vondrack:
Borc: ok, bye, have a nice day!
vondrack: np - she loves me telling her what's going on in the PtWDG
vondrack: bye
Borc: )
vondrack:
Borc: oh i know the problem ))))
* Borc has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)

[vondrack]

And here goes the draft I have sent to Borc:

Hello, Borc!

I am hereby sending you the draft of the trade we were discussing
during our chat. I intentionally left out the gold sum. If your team
is ok with the rest of the draft, feel free to come up with your own
idea of the fair balance in gold. A lump sum paid immediately, lump
sum paid on a certain turn, gold-per-turn payment - whatever suits
your plans best.

I take it I have your word that Arne will not move on the next turn -
we shall play our turn with no unnecessary delay then, hopefully
sorting the situation/deal out until we get to play our next turn...

1) Legoland agrees to provide Neu Demogyptica (ND) with Theology
immediately after signing this agreement. ND agrees to not
resell/trade/gift this technology to any other party for 20 turns from
receiving it. After these 20 turns, ND agrees to not trade Theology to
any other team, unless that team also agrees to not build Sistine's
Chapel as part of the trade.

2) ND agrees, in exchange, to provide Legoland with XX gold pieces and
withdraw Arne the Scout from the Legoland landmass via the shortest
route (E-E from the position he was on Turn 110, then aboard a boat).
ND agrees to not attempt to chart the Legoland landmass other than by
sailing around its shores.

3) ND agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel as long as
Legoland remains in the game.

Best regards,
vondrack
Legoland

Speaking to ZargonX & Kloreep in the morning, we informally came with 50 gold as "just fine" - since it is actually the no-Sistine clause (and Arne's prompt departure, of course) we are after... the gold is there mostly to make us look not like "kissing ND's...".

[Tiberius]

I have a feeling that they will offer more than 50. I'd guess 100 (maybe 5 gpt).

Anyway, nice chat. I missed only the "... otherwise Arne will be impaled in Karina" part, but heck, you can't have everything you want

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I have a feeling that they will offer more than 50. I'd guess 100 (maybe 5 gpt).

Anyway, nice chat. I missed only the "... otherwise Arne will be impaled in Karina" part, but heck, you can't have everything you want

Yes, we can't have everything.

I wanted to make it as little confrontation as possible. Fortunately, Borc was very reasonable, too. I never had to even mention hostilities. I believe they're well aware of that they have nothing to gain by going hostile towards us - Arne would be dead this very turn and they would be unable to even avenge his death (with just a single coastal city) for many turns.

And agreed re: the gold they may offer. At least I hope so.

[vondrack]

Just to keep you up to date, this has been waiting for me in my mailbox this morning:

Hello Vondrack!
We are discussing your draft in our forums.
we did not move Scout Arne this turn.
I am sure we will send you a answer very soon!
good luck
Borc

[vondrack]

This fresh from Darekill:

Hello Vondrack

our People have finally worked out a proposal concerning the so called "Arne's springbrake affair":

We will take Arne back. we understand that you don't want him at Legoland so he will leave. See he is a merry tourist and not a pest.
We do this so you see that we realy have no bad intents.

We are really interestet in Theology and agree to the folowing.

a; We will not enter Legoland in the next 50 turns if you promise not to enter Borconia in the next 50 turns too. To furhter extend this we offer a NAP for 50 turns up to the year 500 AD.

b; we will not give theology to anyone in the next 20 turns.

c; we will not build the sistine.

d; If we are to give theology awya after the 20 turns are over We will only do this if they promise not to build the sistine too

These terms are not so easy to accept for us as it may seem because:

1. We already have an alternative source for theology but they need a little time before they can give it to us.

2. Beeing a religious Nation, the sistine would be a path for us to a golden age. We would give this up and that is something to mention.

3. Under the given conditions it is very unlikely that we can resale the tech. We accept that but of course it has it's price.

The last point for the trade was that you wanted some mony too.
Money is the one thing we do not have enough to give it away easy.

So here is what we can offer there:

We give you spices for 20 turns for free but to do so we need a harbor that can be rushed for about 50g. If you gave us the money to rush the harbor we give you the spice.


So you have the spice, the withdrawel of Arne, the security that we do not build the sistine and not give away the tech too soon, a long term NaP with us and a trustworthy tradespartner.

We get theology now and not later.

What do you say?

sincerely Darekill consul of Neu Demogyptica

Bascially, at first sight, I believe it sounds acceptable (as spices for 20 turns equals ro roughly 50 gold, maybe more). PLUS, they are actually offering a 50-turn NAP, which really is a very good thing for us (we haven't even though about getting this).

But I will think this over a bit and add my comments later today.

[vondrack]

Hm, can't help myself, but think of ND's message... so the comments are here sooner then promised...

I believe we should take it with just minor adjustments. No rush, let's delay our response for 1-2 days, but I think it is a fine deal.

1) WE GET THE NO SISTINE CLAUSE
This is actually golden... even if we got nothing else, it would be helpful - keep in mind that getting a no-Sistine clause actually makes building Bach's, too, even more likely. VERY important for us.

2) WE GET A LONG NAP
Another very good point. As we wish to be left alone for as long as possible, this is an extremely fine stuff for us. 50 turns basically covers the period of Ansar Warriors.

3) as for the spices...
I would explain we do not have a harbour yet, plus that we would not be able to trade anyway, as we have to discover Astronomy first, to be able to trade over sea tiles. So I would suggest including the spice bit into the trade, but would make it so that "Legoland will receive spices free of charge for 20 turns once such a trade becomes technically possible" - this way, we save 50 gold, they do not get a cheap harbour they want and we get the spices later on, when they are more valuable for us.

[Tiberius]

1. We already have an alternative source for theology but they need a little time before they can give it to us.

Who that might me? Is GS working on Theology or is it somebody from those who we are selling to.
In the first case it is bad, because it would hinder our no Sistine negotiations with them. No one else is working on Theo, that's for sure.
In the second case, maybe we should tell ND that we made the same conditions to everbody who we sold Theology to, so they wouldn't be able to build Sistine's anyway.

a; We will not enter Legoland in the next 50 turns if you promise not to enter Borconia in the next 50 turns too. To furhter extend this we offer a NAP for 50 turns up to the year 500 AD.

Not only they want a NAP but also we won't be able to land on Borconia (read: Bob) for the next 50 turns. I wonder: are they up to something and want us to stay out? Because otherwise why would they care if we land in Spain, for instance?

Anyway, it is not a bad treaty. They really wanted to give us something in exchange for Theo and apparently they don't have money, or more likely they are keeping it for upgrades.

[vondrack]

A little bit of extra communication:

Hello, Darekill!

Acknowledging the receipt of your proposal. I can't speak for the whole Lego team, but for me personally, it would probably be acceptable with a minor adjustment - that is because we do not have a harbour ourselves yet (and will probably not have one for 15-20 more turns), plus we'll not be able to trade with anyone until we discover Astronomy, which is going to take some time (sea tiles block all possible trade routes for us). So I think we will ask to change the spice bit (which I understand is basically the replacement for gold we asked for) so that you would agree to provide us with 20 turns of free spices once the trade becomes technically possible. We would omit that 50g harbour rush contribution, as you should be able to finish your harbour in the meantime (and if not, it would be considered a valid obstacle to the "technical possibility" of fulfilling the spice part of the deal).

(if you can comment/agree on this small adjustment, I would appreciate that - might expedite our intrateam discussion re: your proposal).

Best regards,
vondrack

just like you i have to discuss this first with my team but i guess that this is absolutely fair and agreeable.
I'ts a pleassure to do buissiness with you.
I'll stay in contact and tell you as soon as i can make the deal official. You can tell your team that we will probably agree to the conditions you mentioned. Please tell me if you have their official response.

Sincerly Darekill
Consul of Neu Demogyptica

[Kloreep]

I would object to the no landing clause if we were planning on anything in the next 50 turns... but seeing as we want to keep building, this is actually a great excuse if RP or GoW wants us to send military for a Bobian war. We would have to stay out because of the treaty, possibly sending gold (our only real means of contribution anyway). So I think this is very good for us...