Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Tiberius]

How about this: We give them 200 gold. They give us their WM now. After 20 (?) turns they give us their WM again and 100 gold.
How does this sound?

Edit: Hmm, isn't this what Radek proposed in the first place?

[Kloreep]

A 20-turn loan should be okay. So long as we don't buy too many other things until the Republic switch; we should keep at least 320 gold for Karina's courthouse rush.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Plus, and perhaps more importantly - we don't want to make it look like we are a money machine here. That we have given that much money to one civ may increase the cash demands from the other civs (I doubt Vox is being super secret about information on us). Plus we will need money to make the next series of tech trades.

Well, everybody knows by know we are a money machine, since we are one of the fastest researchers. Only money machines keep their research at 100% - others save cash and BUY techs, as they are unable to research cost effectively on their own (unless going for 40 turn research cycles).

Fortunately enough, once we get Engineering and Feudalism, we will be able to research just about anything we decide to - the tech tree splits into more branches instead of merging some of them. Means that if someone asks for too much money for a specific tech we might want, we will simply not buy it and research it on our own instead - it will take us less time that it will take the other party to research "our tech" we will naturally not trade either...

As for the deal... what I originally proposed was: let's provide 200 gold to Voxes in exchange for their current world map as soon as they ask for the gold (=as soon as they need it). Once their war with GS is over (or almost over, in case they'd be going to lose it), they should have two options: pay us 100 gold back or give us their world map again. This effectively means buying their current world map for 100 gold + a loan of 100 more gold with an option to repay this loan with the world map of Gathering Storm (more or less).

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
As for the deal... what I originally proposed was: let's provide 200 gold to Voxes in exchange for their current world map as soon as they ask for the gold (=as soon as they need it). Once their war with GS is over (or almost over, in case they'd be going to lose it), they should have two options: pay us 100 gold back or give us their world map again. This effectively means buying their current world map for 100 gold + a loan of 100 more gold with an option to repay this loan with the world map of Gathering Storm (more or less).

To be honest, I like my proposal more. I agree with the "200 gold for Vox now", to help their war effort, but when it comes to asking for 2 WMs in return, I agree with the others: I don't like the idea anymore. We don't really need those maps, especially 2 of them. I'd like to see that we get some money back. I still see it as a loan, combined with a map buying. Hence my proposal: see my previous post.

[vondrack]

Well, then I would prefer arranging a loan of 200 gold now in exchange for getting their world map when the war is over + a repayment of 100 gold. The problem I have with the current Voxian world map is that it does not include the territory of Gathering Storm, which I'd really like to know, while it most probably will include it (at least partially) once the war is over - irrespective of who's going to win.

The increased value of the world map would be fairly balanced by the increased risk involved on our side.

[lmtoops]

Originally posted by vondrack
Well, then I would prefer arranging a loan of 200 gold now in exchange for getting their world map when the war is over + a repayment of 100 gold. The problem I have with the current Voxian world map is that it does not include the territory of Gathering Storm, which I'd really like to know, while it most probably will include it (at least partially) once the war is over - irrespective of who's going to win.

The increased value of the world map would be fairly balanced by the increased risk involved on our side.

I agree with this proposal, it makes the most sense.

Of course, Vox may not need a loan. Based on the chat log, they may not need it. Of course, if I were them I would accept the interest-free loan. If the money is not needed, than just return it.

[Tiberius]

Let's make then 2 proposals, and let them choose:

1. what Vondrack says
2. a 100 gold loan, payable at the end of the war with their WM.

Too bad we won't be able to see much from the war, though (not getting the map now).

[Sharpe]

No, I still say no more than 80-120 gold when they ask with the promise of possibly more later when we have the money - and no "we don't really need the money" responses from some of you because WE DO need the money (we are talking about giving them nearly half of our current money for practically nothing in return right now?!) :

Knight upgrades 240 gold (3*80) when we get Chivalry
Sword upgrades 160 gold (4*40)
plus upgrades to Med Inf from swords

Total of military upgrades 400 gold plus Med Inf upgrades

Plus any gold rushes that we want or need - Kloreep has mentioned 360 gold for a courthouse in Karina - a vital precursor to accelerating the completion of the FP IIRC.

Plus any gold we have to trade for techs

Plus gold to allow us to lower the tax rate and increase the science rate

Plus gold to cover any even lower tax rate if we have to have a luxury rate (quite possible with the poprushes for the following 20 turns)

Plus I think we need to increase our military even further before we go to anarchy as that is a possible time to attack us - of course that will result in additional military costs per turn when we reach republic.

PLUS Vox has never even made an attempt to start paying back the first loan that we made ...

Sure, buy the world map and don't wait for the end of the war as that might be sometime off...

[redstar1]

I have to say I agree in principle with Sharpe on this. We have alredy given Vox a hefty loan and indications are they have put it to good use. By all means help them in crushing the evil GS But sometimes we have to put ourselves first, the courthouse in Karina being a prime example. Has anyone modelled the corruption cut and the boost in production from this?

Not so sure about being invaded though. I would imagine we would get wind of it through the diplomatic channels, seeing as we still have freinds! Plus I think we probably have enough to fight them off for 4 turns of anarchy....

[vondrack]

I stated my stance and I haven't changed my mind. Ensuring that GS become history is far more important than shutting our research down for 3-4 turns (since that is how we are going to get those 200 gold if we really need them THAT bad).

Offering them 80 gold for their world map is just plain offending... only the fact they forced GS to waste 300 shields on the Great Lighthouse is worth 200 gold.

And no "no 'we don't really need the money' responses" comments, please. WE DO NOT NEED THOSE 200 GOLD NOW AND AT LEAST FOR THE NEXT ~15 TURNS (until we switch to Republic). And if we need them then, we will be able to easily make them by slowing or shutting down our research.

[Tiberius]

I agree with Radek. With the GS eliminated (or badly damaged) we won't have serious tech rivals, so 200 gold shouldn't be a problem to set aside, researching a little slower.

Important is to keep in mind our more important goals, and making GS disappear while gaining a powerful ally (Vox) is such a goal (for me, at least). We won't be able to win this game alone, with or without those 200 gold. However getting rid of one of our main opponents/rivals while gainig a friend is a much bigger step in winning this game, IMHO.

[redstar1]

Then we better hope Vox win....

[Tiberius]

Off topic:

Btw, redstar, since I see you here: did you play your vvv PBEM turn? Those people over there seem to be quite angry and desperate because of the continuous delay of the game, and as far as I understand, it is your turn to play.

[redstar1]

i haven't seen the save since the first turn....didn't realise I was supposed to have it!!

[vondrack]

I have hastily responded in the morning before leaving my machine... but I feel this is extremely important, so I will add more comments now.

Originally posted by Sharpe
No, I still say no more than 80-120 gold when they ask with the promise of possibly more later when we have the money - and no "we don't really need the money" responses from some of you because WE DO need the money (we are talking about giving them nearly half of our current money for practically nothing in return right now?!) :

I have already mentioned 200 gold we are talking about is not needed at this moment and in the near future - at least not until we switch to Republic, which is at least 15 turns away. The quicker Voxes are able to crush GS, the better for us, since the less aid they will need post-war to catch up economy- and research-wise again (becoming a truly "useful" ally for us).

I do not think we understand "practically nothing" the same way. Voxes already helped us tremendously by forcing GS to scrap their wonder build in Hurricane (if they did not, one of the fine early medieval wonders would have already been out of our reach). They are helping us big time by forcing GS to use their resources on war, allowing us to get ahead of GS by having extra time to build up our infrastructure. And they are the only ones capable of possibly totally eliminating this greatest economic rival of ours. Voxes seriously slowing down or even eliminating GS is not "practically nothing".

Knight upgrades 240 gold (3*80) when we get Chivalry
Sword upgrades 160 gold (4*40)
plus upgrades to Med Inf from swords

Total of military upgrades 400 gold plus Med Inf upgrades.

Chivalry will be hardly available earlier than in 14-15 turns. And I am less than convinced we shall upgrade our swords to Medieval Infantry at the earliest possible moment. Having them stationed in our barracked cities, ready to be upgraded if there is a real need to should be just fine.

Plus any gold rushes that we want or need - Kloreep has mentioned 360 gold for a courthouse in Karina - a vital precursor to accelerating the completion of the FP IIRC.

Karina may do with ~250 gold for the courthouse rush only. ATM, Karina is at 20 shields, getting 10 more this turn from the chop. In 5 turns, Karina grows to pop 4 and can 2-poprush the Temple. Then, it would be able to start building a Courthouse - would accumulate at least 7 shields prior to the revolution. Add 10 more shields from a possible chop and there would be just a little bit over 60 shields to go - 60+*4=~250 gold.

Plus any gold we have to trade for techs

What techs do you mean? Keep in mind we are talking about the next 20-30 turns. I am quite sure we will be able to get Feudalism+Chivalry for Theology+Education (from whatever source). Engineering shall come from Voxes (I expect them to be quite generous, considering they effectively screwed our own deal on Engineering with RPers... and even if they ask for gold, we may simply scrap part of the loan instead of paying more gold). I do not believe Invention will become available within the next 30 turns. What techs are we going to buy with gold then?

Plus gold to allow us to lower the tax rate and increase the science rate

Increase what? We are at 100% research... if you mean we will have to knock down our research slider a bit after switching to Republic, to be able to pay for all our city improvements and units, then it is necessary to mention the EXTRA gold flowing into our treasury because of lower corruption and extra commerce.

Plus gold to cover any even lower tax rate if we have to have a luxury rate (quite possible with the poprushes for the following 20 turns)

Again, this is not a problem. The whole poprushing plan assumes (and quite correctly), we will need to spend NO money on luxury slider, as all the poprushed cities are supposed to remain at pop levels not troubled by happiness problems (keeping the pop level low enough by building workers and settlers). One rushed pop point is effectively countered by the rushed temple, the other (and keep in mind we will have only some cities using a 2-pop rush) may be easily solved using an entertainer... which effectively slows the growth even further, making unhappiness no problem at all.

Plus I think we need to increase our military even further before we go to anarchy as that is a possible time to attack us - of course that will result in additional military costs per turn when we reach republic.

Just that nobody knows when we are going to go into anarchy... before anyone can get to us, we will be out of it anyway. And our current forces are strong enough to hold an invasion for the few turns we'd need to get out of the anarchy. Our core is well defended and that's what matters most. I would not support building more troops at this moment (beyond our current plans). Considering the size of an invasion army that may theoretically land, we are having and planning to have an adequate military.

PLUS Vox has never even made an attempt to start paying back the first loan that we made ...

Sure you realize that if we are talking about providing Voxes with another loan, it makes little sense to expect them to start repaying the first loan in the meantime, right?


These are all kinds of reasons that seem to discourage us from providing Voxes with money (with 200 gold, to be precise)... but what about trying to find a way that would actually ALLOW us to provide them with another loan? Steve, do you agree with me and others that ensuring GS leave the game and Voxes become our allies is EXTREMELY important and worth significant effort/investment/bet/whatever?

Every time 200 gold looks like a lot of money we cannot afford to part with, remember that it is less than 4 turns of our current tax income. By the time we will actually need the money (i.e. after switching to Republic), it will quite likely be less than 3 turns. That's negligible compared to potential gains.