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OK, I have had a chat with BetaHound earlier today. All kinds of stuff mixed (PtWDG, ISDG, my Misfits game), so I will just put a brief summary of what I learnt:
1) Voxes currently have 15 immos. 7 more warriors will be upgraded within 2 turns. 15 more warriors shall be built within the next 5 turns - all of them to be upgraded to immos (they have a smart road network setup allowing them to build warriors in all their cities but one, upgrading them to immos with just a little delay in that last city that is barracked - as the only one - connected to iron). That is 37 immortals altogether within 7 turns from now.
2) They have funds almost enough for all the upgrades. It may be they will need something like 100-200 gold eventually - exact figure depends upon what exactly triggering GA does to their economy.
3) GS capital is just 5 tiles from the border. +6 food pump. It is likely Voxes will not attack it head on, but pass it by, searching for the shield cities and the iron source (they do not know where GS' iron is yet).
4) a Vox galley is following the east coast of Estonia, another GoW galley with 2 horsemen is following the west coast, both looking for the GS source of iron.
5) Voxes are determined to eliminate GS completely.
Session Start: Mon Apr 14 19:59:25 2003
Session Ident: BetaHound
Session Ident: BetaHound (~brucehyne@CPE00045a72c5ed-CM014310005616.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
[19:59] BetaHound: Greetings! Nimitz: hey Nimitz: so hows the war BetaHound: hey - I'm back - one sec. Nimitz: ok BetaHound: ok - back. BetaHound: The war's fine - still developing. Nimitz: good BetaHound: We've had one slight set-back which was them triggering their GA. Nimitz: got those 37 immortals yet BetaHound: We knew it would come sooner or late - just wanted to delay it. Nimitz: yes that is not good BetaHound: We are up to 22 right now - with 7 heading for upgrade. Nimitz: very good BetaHound: 15 of those are closing in on two cities. Nimitz: so what you think GSs clames BetaHound: We expect to take them without much issue - the key is trying to use the minimum force necessary so GS still doesn't get a clue if our real strength. BetaHound: GS continues to underestimate us and dismiss us - which is very good, BetaHound: They also think GoW are their friends BetaHound: Little do they know what is in store for them. Nimitz: they aren't even going for chivalry BetaHound: hmmm... BetaHound: cash all the way? Nimitz: research we think BetaHound: but what? BetaHound: engineering? Nimitz: fey Nimitz: feu Nimitz: then invention BetaHound: I think they finish that in two turns - they have a deal to sell it to GoW for 200 gold. Nimitz: yes BetaHound: They need engineering for invention. Nimitz: well then your right Nimitz: 200 bahh BetaHound: It would be good if they researched Chivalry. Nimitz: why BetaHound: We need to take cash out of tgheir economy. BetaHound: I wonder if GoW or yourselves can talk them into researching it. Nimitz: it will go Nimitz: we tried in a way Nimitz: to see why they wouldn't BetaHound: don't understand 'it will go' Nimitz: the mony BetaHound: yes - rushes we suspect. Nimitz: they have to rush and upgrade BetaHound: yup BetaHound: I wonder if they will get desperate enough to go back to despotism. Nimitz: and there at least 12 turns from invention BetaHound: I guess that depends on how big a bite we take out of them. BetaHound: yes Nimitz: they are very cocky BetaHound: oh - yah. for sure. BetaHound: But that is good. Nimitz: oh would you happen to know why they wish us to turn on RP BetaHound: hmm - did they suggest that recently? Nimitz: yes very Nimitz: yesterday Nimitz: they said RP would attack us BetaHound: Ha! RP is scared for their own skin on Bob. BetaHound: RP also refused to buy feudalism from them. From what RP tells us. Nimitz: hmm BetaHound: Also - you and RP are the next strongest teams. Would make sense from a GS perspective. Nimitz: they seem to think RP causes most of what happens on bob BetaHound: Hey - BTW - CONGRATS on the pyramids!!! BetaHound: First wonder of the ptwdg!! Nimitz: yes we are happy about getting them BetaHound: Yes - we were pleased for you as well. BetaHound: Although we were kind of hoping for a GL soon. Nimitz: yes BetaHound: But there is lots left to choose from. BetaHound: Sun Tzu's or better yet - the FP. BetaHound: Especially given the shape of our continent. Nimitz: yes the FP would be nice for us too BetaHound: Our capitol is the northern most city. the 4-5 cities around it are OK, but once you get south of that - corruption becomes a big issue. BetaHound: Back to RP. Nimitz: GS says you got bab city placement Nimitz: *bad BetaHound: The start was mediocre. Could it have been better. Possibly. BetaHound: But we also had to invest in a very long road to make sure we got the territory we did. Nimitz: no the way you aganged your cities BetaHound: arranged? Nimitz: yup BetaHound: BetaHound: Well - I guess when this is over I will ask Nathan what they would have done with the start - but for now - we just want them to eat it. Nimitz: yes Nimitz: ok RP Nimitz: as you were saying BetaHound: I don't think RP are the shakers and movers on Bob. BetaHound: They are worried about the 'sharks' as they call them. Nimitz: we don't really either BetaHound: And NeuD and GoW have stuck together fairly well. Nimitz: we think they alianated most everyone BetaHound: Especially on most foreign policy issues. BetaHound: RP? Nimitz: yes BetaHound: Yes. Agreed. BetaHound: We have had to suck it in a bit with them lately - as we are trying to close an advance deal for engineering, BetaHound: They agreed - then backed off. you know the drill. Nimitz: very well Nimitz: but we used them really on Nimitz: early on Nimitz: for info BetaHound: I think they want to back the winner - and I don't think RP realizes the alignment against GS BetaHound: I think they believe too much of what they read in the papers. Nimitz: yes I find the back alleys much better for info BetaHound: Agreed! 100% BetaHound: RP is playing this game way too cute - and I think it will cost them. Nimitz: I saw the lux war coming long before RP did BetaHound: really? Nimitz: well not lux it self but a war BetaHound: And what did RP do during that one? Sit on the sidelines. Nimitz: they said none would start a war this early BetaHound: Ditto for our trying to settle Bob. BetaHound: And now they are trying it with the current war. BetaHound: Spineless jellyfish. Nimitz: yes I agree Nimitz: Oh I've got a couple of questions BetaHound: Well - once - and I should sya - if - but we are confident - GS is gone - RP is next in everyone's collective sigfhts. Nimitz: we were wondering if you had more then 6 cities BetaHound: Yup- just a sec. Nimitz: k BetaHound: 7 - sorry. Had to check. Thought it was eight - but another settler will be in the queus shortly Nimitz: ok good Nimitz: GS said 6 Nimitz: and that you pop rushed 3 BetaHound: 9 if we can take one of the GS cities in tact. But that will be more for military than production purposes. Nimitz: oh and is your iron a colony BetaHound: Nope - only pop rushed Dissidentville. Which was so corrupt we could only get one shield out of it. We pop rushed a barracks and two elite spearmen just before the war started. BetaHound: yes - but we could be getting a second source very soon. Nimitz: where BetaHound: It is one tile outside of Dissiedentville's boundary. Nimitz: GS seems to think they'll get your iron soon BetaHound: If we take the Gs city we want - our cultural boundaries will encompass it. BetaHound: ha - we want them to try. Nimitz: cool BetaHound: We will have a stack of immortals waiting for them to try. BetaHound: And we want them to pull units away from the defence. Nimitz: though so BetaHound: And we know exactly where to ambush them. Nimitz: so your prepared BetaHound: They have three routes to get there - really only two cause they don't have any galleys we have seen yet. BetaHound: Yes - we are prepared. Thanks for the heads up. Do you know something we don't? Nimitz: I must say you did well with your ruse Nimitz: not sepsificly BetaHound: yes - and we have a second going. BetaHound: Get this. Nimitz: you do BetaHound: GS makes the deal with GoW for feudalism. We knew about it and discussed it with GoW. BetaHound: So - Gs figures GoW are friends. Nimitz: yes that I know BetaHound: GoW gets exploration rights for estonia - an excuse to get their galleys south. BetaHound: In excahnge - GoW agrees to leave a galley where they can keep an eye on our troop movements now that grog is dead. BetaHound: And report to GS on those movements. BetaHound: But they never said they would be accurate. Nimitz: and they invade BetaHound: So - the lates stack of 11 immortals, 4 warriors and two spearman was reported as 3 immortals and 4 spearmen to GS. BetaHound: BetaHound: The 4 warriors, along with 2 others wre upgraded in D"ville last turn. Nimitz: why warriors BetaHound: We don't produce Immortals. Too expensive. Nimitz: yes I know that BetaHound: We produce warriors in the upper cities - which are disconnected from the iron... Nimitz: on purpuse BetaHound: and move them to Dissdentville near the fron lines which now has a barracks and do the upgarde there. Nimitz: ok BetaHound: yes - on purpose. We have done it twice now. Nimitz: so how you doing on cash BetaHound: That's why cash is ket to us. 40 gold per upgrade. BetaHound: Great minds think alike. BetaHound: BetaHound: One sec. BetaHound: OK - we are down to 200 gold - but are up over 30+ gpt. BetaHound: And several cities grow in the next two turns. Nimitz: so you don't need a lone BetaHound: And we have deals in the works with NeuD and RP. BetaHound: Not quite yet - thank-you. Maybe in 3-5 turns. BetaHound: But I suspect we will. BetaHound: Do you guys have any pull with NeuD at all- or are they as quiet with you as well. Nimitz: none BetaHound: They are very hard team to read. Nimitz: yes they are BetaHound: btw - are you getting feudalism from GoW right away - or do you have to wait 10 turns. Nimitz: we're waiting of your choice Nimitz: our BetaHound: I ask because GoW has offered it to us - fr a very reasonable price - but will not sell it for 10 turns as per GS' deal. Nimitz: till chivalry is around BetaHound: Which I respect - to a degree - but we are in a war - they are suppose to be our allies - and we could use it for pikemen. BetaHound: GoW that is. BetaHound: But - 10 turns is not that much. BetaHound: yes - I guess with Mercs, feudalism really doesn't do that much for you - does it? Nimitz: nope BetaHound: How is everything lese on Lego? BetaHound: else Nimitz: very good Nimitz: 11 citys BetaHound: Yee haw. Nimitz: corruption BetaHound: Thta is waht we figure GS has as well. BetaHound: Maybe 12. Nimitz: we think 11 Nimitz: maybe 10 BetaHound: Soon to be nine. BetaHound: And then after that - well - we have some targets very close. BetaHound: Including their capitol. Nimitz: get there capitol and you sould have there country on its knees BetaHound: It is not a big shield producer. Mostly food. A settler/worker pump. On flood plains. Nimitz: yes but its the center of power BetaHound: But - yes - it would split their nation. And give us internal lines for attack. Nimitz: or gravity BetaHound: agreed. BetaHound: both. BetaHound: Ad we can get to it entirely by mountains - except for the last tile. Nimitz: cool BetaHound: Timing will be kwy - both with our east coast operation and with GoW horesemen. BetaHound: key Nimitz: yes BetaHound: Back to the cities - we would have had 9 by now - but the first Bob expedition was not well thougt out. Nimitz: so you know of anyone planing to attack us soon BetaHound: Nope. Nimitz: true BetaHound: GoW is helping us. BetaHound: NeuD and RP are staring each other down. BetaHound: That leaves us and GS, and believe me - the rhetoric is real. BetaHound: As is the war. BetaHound: That's it!!!! BetaHound: Just figured it out:[/b] Nimitz: what!!!! Nimitz: is it good news BetaHound: RP has been asking for screenshots of some of the war action - claiming they haven't seen much war and are interested. BetaHound: We couldn't figure out why in godz name they would want or need it. BetaHound: First we thought they wanted to know if we did in fact stand a chance. BetaHound: But now I figure they may suspect that the whole thing is made up - and Vox and GS are going to take someone else out soon. I bet that is it. Nimitz: yes BetaHound: hehehe BetaHound: They are out thinking themselves. Nimitz: like GS BetaHound: And I didn't realize it until I was joking with you above. BetaHound: yes - like GS. Nimitz: RP wanted our map too BetaHound: This haas been a fruitful chat in more ways than one. Thank -you! BetaHound: Really? Nimitz: yes BetaHound: So - you haven't given it to anyone yet - right? Nimitz: we said no of course Nimitz: right BetaHound: right on BetaHound: we ahve traded with GoW BetaHound: and that world map had your capitol shown. Nimitz: none get our map or all get our map Nimitz: ND set up an emmbissie BetaHound: btw - our team has discussed it - and you should know - that we are willing to give you our world map. You have been very supportive - and we would see it as a sign of trust and friendship. BetaHound: We would not expect or want yours in return. Nimitz: oh I never expected that BetaHound: Just so you know - if you think it would help with your team. BetaHound: And if some doubt us - given our - er - shakey history. BetaHound: It would be best if we could wait until we have a GS city to show off. Nimitz: you've nothing but friendly from us Nimitz: ok BetaHound: But - if necessary - and even to help with the loan - we are more than willing to provide it. BetaHound: I think our team trusts you more than we trust ourselves. Nimitz: I no you regret destroing Lux Nimitz: *know BetaHound: Yes - that still bugs me. My wife thinks I'm a wacko for worrying about it. BetaHound: Nimitz: did you do it off bad info BetaHound: But Trip is a decent guy. BetaHound: Yes - poor communication. BetaHound: And some bad vibes from GoW and RP - who Trip was dealing with, and this gfot said and that. Nimitz: too bad we won't have GS 's map - would be interesting to see those cities change color hehe BetaHound: Never one thing. Nimitz: never trust RP we've learned that BetaHound: yes - well we have a fairly good sense of their territory now. We should see more shortly. BetaHound: No - I feel really bad that part of Lux's demise was based on crap from RP. We have learned from that. Nimitz: you did know were Lux was moving BetaHound: What is done is done. And the game a little less interesting for it. BetaHound: Nope - not in the short term. BetaHound: I had taled with Vondrack early on and he said he supported the move. BetaHound: talked Nimitz: so you had no idea where they where going BetaHound: But we had no idea things were as close as they were. BetaHound: That is the tragic part. Nimitz: as soon as they had Map making they would of been gone BetaHound: And I had a note half-written to vondrack inquiring where things wre at - and then the save came in - and the note nvere went. Talk about fate. BetaHound: And that was the turn we did it. BetaHound: It is like a Shakespearian tragedy. BetaHound: And like Hamlet - it still haunts us. Nimitz: we've always tried to be the nice guys BetaHound: yes - as did we. That changed with Lux unfortunately. Nimitz: while it will never be forgotten it may be forgiven BetaHound: And to think this is only a game. BetaHound: Makes you wonder. Nimitz: I've always though of this as more of a sim. BetaHound: Better we make these tragic errors in judgement here than in RL. BetaHound: Yes - it certainly is. It is quite the experience. Nimitz: thing get as complex as in RL BetaHound: My first such one. BetaHound: Yes - more so in someways. BetaHound: Listen - I should be going. Nimitz: ok BetaHound: Any time you want to talk or want an update - let me know. Nimitz: been a very nice chat Nimitz: ok bye BetaHound: yes - take care. Regards to Lego. BetaHound: bye
Session Close: Mon Apr 14 21:15:52 2003
The one thing I'll point out now is they trust us enough to give us their WM, I'll comment more after others have.
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Term 1 Minister of Finances in the Civ4 Democracy Game and current Justice in the Civ4 Democracy Game President of the Moderate Progressives of Apolyton in the Civ4 Democracy Game Aedificium edificium est Vires
I think we should buy their map. That would help their war effort and even if GS would win this war, all what we've done is buying a WM. Now how much should we pay for it, that's another issue. Probably a WM is worth now ~ 100 gold or more (GS said they bought the WM from Vox for 100 and they said it was cheap). But we should wait indeed a few turns, to see some conquered teritorry
I wonder about this RP issue. It is clear that RP are working on plots and misinformation, but some of their actions/plans exist probably only in the minds of the "clarvoyant" GS team.
I'm afraid that after this war we will have to pick one team and work on the isolation and probably elimination of that team. Not that it would provide us pleasure or something, but because we want to prevent us becoming a target.
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
The best way to prevent us becoming a target is to appear to be an impossible target to hit. We need to use the Pyramids to cover Legos in Cities and build a reasonable Navy to give advance warning.
As for picking a target, I'm not so sure.... Assuming Vox win through, eyes will then turn to Bob. As stated ND and RP are staring each other down but no mention has been made of GOW apart from their relatively token effort on GS. I imagine RP are happy enough to expand to their south, which will probably be unacceptable to both GOW and ND so I can see internal Bob squabbles which Vox and ourselves can to little about.
We should wait and see, all the while preparing for the inevitable war we will have to fight....
I believe that the way we formulate a transaction involving us providing money and Voxes providing their world map is not important. What matters is that we are willing to provide funds to help them with the war against GS and they are willing to provide us with their world map.
I'd suggest something like: you give us your world map, we provide you with 100 gold and 100 more gold (figures not relevant - I haven't been thinking too much about them; consider them just placeholders) as a loan. Once your war is over, you either provide us with your world map again (this time covering the whole of your landmass) or repay the loan.
As for the next target - that team has already been picked up, just not by us... RPers. AFAIK, the plans of the Vox+GoW alliance are to join ND and stomp upon RPers... which we will happily watch. The next part of the plans, though, which is them stomping upon us, still looks somewhat suboptimal to me - we shall probably work on that a bit...
I agree that if GS is eliminated, the next war will happen on Bob... it is natural... the winner(s) can gain much there by securing the whole (half of) continent... while if Bobians unite and fight against us, their gains would be debatable (due to corruption to distance), even if they succeed.
It will only be after one of the Bobian teams leave the game that we will become a likely target. I do not say that we WILL NOT be attacked earlier, but it is not likely and we should focus on building a strong economy that will be able to respond quickly in case a threat emerges, instead of overbuilding on military... which is what RPers have a problem with now - they have got the strongest army ATM, but due to oversizing it, they're falling behind research-wise, thus inevitably aiming for ending up with an army composed of obsolete units, sooner or later (plus, gradually becoming at mercy of other civs as far as getting technologies goes).
100+100 sounds good. 100 for the WM and 100 to be renegotiated (map again, or something else) in 20(30?) turns or when the war with GS is over, whichever happens first.
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
Instead of paying them, how about scratching out their current loan of 150 gold in exchange for their WM now and then after the war? IMO, 200 is a little too much for a map, even of all of Estonia... though if they want more, we could throw in an extra 50 gold payment; 200 may be too much, but I think it would be a worthwhile purchase. Besides, BH said they'd be willing to give us their WM, not just trade for it, so I don't think we'll have tough negotiations; we should go with defaulting the loan, which is 150 gold for them in the future.
I suppose so we can give them money. We don't need the money. Also, if we are going to back Vox, might as well go all the way.
It sounds like GS are in for a big surprise. Especially with the mis-information from the GoW galley.
BetaHound: In exchange - GoW agrees to leave a galley where they can keep an eye on our troop movements now that grog is dead.
BetaHound: And report to GS on those movements.
BetaHound: But they never said they would be accurate.
Nimitz: and they invade
BetaHound: So - the lates stack of 11 immortals, 4 warriors and two spearman was reported as 3 immortals and 4 spearmen to GS.
This is very wrong on the part of GoW.
Isn't it implied that GS wants "accurate" troop movements. Something to keep in mind when dealing with GoW.
Originally posted by lmtoops
I suppose so we can give them money. We don't need the money.
/me nearly has a heart attack
We don't need it now, no, but remember that every gold we save is potentially 1/2 a shield (when upgrading a unit) or 1/4 shield (when gold-rushing). So we should make sure we have plenty of gold by the time we revolt; I want a courthouse gold-rushed in Karina as soon as we're in Republic, and it would be nice to rush something in Legopolis, which will probably be building Sistines.
Yeah 200 gold is too much - we will need the money for upgrades for military and some gold rushing (don't forget that the upgrades for 3 knights might be about 240 gold in total I am guessing)
Plus, and perhaps more importantly - we don't want to make it look like we are a money machine here. That we have given that much money to one civ may increase the cash demands from the other civs (I doubt Vox is being super secret about information on us). Plus we will need money to make the next series of tech trades.
I would take Vox's suggestion and wait for them to conquer their first one or two GS cities , then buy the map for up to 100 gold (preferably 80).
Guys, you are forgetting a very important thing. Our money are meant to help Voxes win the war against GS. 200 gold is 5 more immortal upgrades. If Voxes become strapped for gold and eventually lose the war, we lose our initial 150 gold loan (and any others) as well.
These two deals are being tied together for one reason only: to make them look at least remotely acceptable for GS, if it ever becomes a public knowledge we made the deal. But originally - Voxes told us they were ready to give us their world map as a gesture of good will and friendship. And we were ready to arrange another loan for them (at least I hope we were), because we had reasons to (mostly to help them do harm to our economic rival, GS). If we tie these two things together, it shall not imply conditions are to be changed...
We shall provide Voxes with the gold once they ask for it, simply because they need it, we do not need it (at least for this moment and the next 15+ turns), and we can afford it. Buying effectively two world maps at 100g each (Voxian & Stormian - reread my initial proposal, please) would be a bargain... and 200 gold, when it really comes to the moment we'd have use for the gold, will be less than 3 turns of 100% taxes for us... that's very cheap.
Another thing to keep in mind: even if Voxes win the war, they will need our help to become a "useful" ally. They will be behind in research, they will be lacking proper infrastructure etc. Much like Britain after WW2... Britain won the war (was among winners), yet its economy (and more importantly the treasury) was terribly damaged. Unless we will be happy to let them struggle far behind, being of no use to us, we should be aware of that they will need even more help when the war is over... cheap or free techs, loan waivers etc.
Let's be generous - we can afford it. It's generosity that will gain us loyal allies, not pinpointed "1 for 1" deals... just the fact that Voxes played a major role in GS wasting 300 shields on The Great Lighthouse is worth a lot, IMHO. Otherwise, one of the fine medieval wonders would have been effectively already taken.
Radek beat me with a few minutes in writing his previous post.
I wanted to say the same thing: scrathing their initial loan doesn't help their war effort, which is our goal. Besides we are not giving away 200 gold: we are buying a WM with 100 and loaning another 100. We can afford loaning money, we don't need it now.
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
Well... why not just take their offer on the WM, and offer them a loan at the same time? We could worry about the GS portion of the map later. Or is there a reason we should jump on it immediately?
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