Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Tiberius]

The deal is good, IMHO. In the worst case, we lose 200 gold (not 50) but, what we get in return is worth it. We buy not only Monotheism, but some time also, because the more the Voxes will rezist in this war, the more time we have to expand and build our infrastructure+military.

Besides I don't really think that the Voxes will be eliminated, with only one exception from the possible scenarios: if the GS attacks them. Otherwise, things are not looking that bad: they will have their golden ages, they have immortals, now they have a map of Bob and some money, plus the GS will get involved for sure if Bobians land on Estonia, plus it will take some time for any of them to build a fleet; so they have a chance.
I wouldn't like to be in anyone's place when Voxes will land on a hill, near one of their cities with 2 spears + 2 immortals! Ouch!

[ZargonX]

And, just remember everyone: the deal is top secret!! We don't want any of the Bobians to find out that we're aiding their enemy...

[Tiberius]

That's for sure!

[Tiberius]

In return for the Bob map, that is simply priceless for Vox, could we maybe ask for screenshots from time to time with their part of Bob, so that we could see the ongoing battle?

[Sharpe]

No, I don't think we should trade the Bob Map to Vox.

Too risky, if Vox moves directly for a Bob city like the eastern GoW or ND ones - the Bob civs will figure out that they have the Bob map.

Trading 200 gold for Monotheism won't raise that much anger from the Bob civs as they won't know when we did that transaction (we could have done it before the war for all they know)

But giving Vox the map of Bob will turn all 3 against us - and we can't afford that right now.

So I agree with the Mono trade/loan but absolutely am opposed to trading the map now.

[Tiberius]

We don't trade an "ingame" map. We give them the map of Bob in an external format (like jpg). No one can catch us: we didn't trade our world map.. Besides, there isn't any treaty that would deny us in doing so.
Needless to say that this treaty will remain top secret.

Plus we have do help Vox as much as we can, to:
1. Prevent Bob becoming too powerful
2. someday we get back our money
3. Prevent another "Lux" happening

[lmtoops]

I'm on board with the entire deal. Giving the map is a little risky, but all we are doing is leveling the playing field a bit. The Bobs may be suspicions, but it won't effect any current deals.

I am concerned that Vondrack basicly closed the deal with no one's approval. The end conversation make it sound like the deal was approved on the spot. Please remember that we rule by democracy.

[redstar1]

To be fair I don't think thats the case. That was a final draft as I understand it and of course it would need support from everyone else. Please also note that although Vondrack handled negociations, there were a few of us present online at the time and we all gave our own support to it there and then. I think thats enough to proceed there and then, and of course it was posted here to gain everyones approval

[Tiberius]

What Redstar says. There's no need to repeat it once again.

This being said, I fully support the deal.

[lmtoops]

All very true, but what if approval wasn't gained?

For example, Sharpe was not in agreement about gifting the Bob map. If a majority held this opinion, then we would be in a tough position.

In any case, something to remember.

[redstar1]

I agree mate, however I think sharpe assumed that it was the whole map, of course its just the map of bob. Noone is going to know it was us and noone need ever know. Its one more thing we can do to help keep the balance of power that benefits us. I hope sharpe understands that. If not he is welcome to bring it up and we shall discuss it

I've no problem with people disagreeing with decisions and I think we do it the right way by guaging general opinion rather than have a poll for absolutely everything. I think its fair to assume that if 3/4/5 members are in favour then most of us will be. From personal experience I haven't found Vondrack to be making any decisions at all without at least conferring with someone in the IRC channel first. The really important, non-administrative decisions are made in the forums and everyone has the oppurtunity to voice their opinion

[Tiberius]

All very true, but what if approval wasn't gained?

Then we would have said to Vox that our members don't agree with the treaty and as such it must be renegotiated, blah blah blah.

Isn't it the same in real life democracies? The governments negotiate and the Parlaments approve... or not, in which case the treaty is renegotiated. It is that simple. Radek didn't approve it by himself, he asked our opinion first (those who were in the chatroom at that time) and now he posted it for approval here. What's the problem?

We must help Vox, if for nothing else than to survive to give us back the money. Do you think that Monotheism for 50 gold isn't a good deal? Wait then to see what the GS will ask for it.

[vondrack]

Just to chime in briefly - the final draft I sent to BetaHound was clearly marked as "final draft" subject to approval by the whole Lego team. We can still back off, if we want... though I believe it would be a mistake.

I do my best to handle stuff in a democratic way - and I would have no (major) problem cancelling the deal, if not approved by the majority of the team. But see... if me and two other members that were online, following the chat in our private chatroom agreed and were ok with the deal, it was very likely that it'd be approved anyway, as we seldom have more than 6 voters in our polls... sometimes, spending 24 hours on "finalizing" a deal is a luxury we cannot afford. And this was, IMHO, the case.

Perhaps it was my fault that I failed to mention in the chatlog post there were at least two other members of Lego (redstar & Tiberius... not sure if there was anyone else) following the chat I was copying for them into our private chatroom. Sorry for that, the whole thing about closing a deal with no approval might have looked a bit different then.

[Kloreep]

I agree that you should mention IRC attendance during negotiations.

to the treaty. Make sure the most important clause (secrecy) stays in. There'll be hell to pay if Bob finds out about the loan, much less the map.

[Sharpe]

however I think sharpe assumed that it was the whole map, of course its just the map of bob.

No, I knew that - I am fundamentally opposed to giving the map of Bob to Vox. If it was just one civ from Bob fighting Vox - maybe it would be ok, but it is all 3 to my knowledge, and we still don't know GS's stand on it. If they join the war against Vox too, we may be caught and face the entire world against us...

Tweaking the Bob civs noses by giving 200 gold for the promise of Monotheism is one thing - don't forget that they still don't have currency and construction and have denied getting those from GS - and pray tell if that is the case where else can they get those from as they are at war with everyone else...

But the map is entirely another - we don't want to appear to be supporting Vox's actions to give a precedent to the other civs in regards to our continent.
Or incur all of their anger - to trade the Bob map to Vox is not a good idea at all... we gain little and risk a lot - don't forget that Vox is the weakest of the remaining civs with 3 against them and with GS still uncertain to join against them or not.

If Vox drives toward the eastern ND and GoW cities, they will KNOW that they have a map and that can only come from one source - US... (Lux couldn't have given it due to their lack of map making and GS doesn't have the map either)

EDIT: from the GS discussion thread, they admit that they were the ones that were trading Construction + Currency to Vox which of course will come from us - so we have caught Vox in a lie - not a good way to have a working relationship.