Master Builder Thread

[Kloreep]

I just ran a sim to see what corruption founding extra cities would bring, and I was very surprised to find myself unable to find any real difference after founding Quantum, Ahhmyfoot, and Tiberium. And I was testing Karina as it will be after poprush and some improvements: six pop working the irrigated cattle, four mined hills, and a mined bonus grass. Karina didn't lose a single shield with all three of these cities founded. Commerce I wasn't watching as closely.

I'll be testing combinations with Invoice and Port Hammer now, though those are much lower on my list regardless of their corruption effects.

Here is the scenario I'm using. Please look it over if you can to make sure I didn't accidentally change something important like the OCN.

Edit: Okay, five more cities seems to be the breaking point... founding Invoice as the fourth city still left everything okay, but the fifth city I founded, Port Hammer, knocked off a shield at Karina and prevented Farmerville from reaching the 6-shield peak in its current cycle.

Given this, I'd say we should found Quantum and Ahhmyfoot ASAP (Tiberium using the Logville settler) + one northern city. I'll now see if building Port Hammer instead of Invoice is still okay.

[Kloreep]

Okay, the results are in: Port Hammer is able to lose another Karina shield by itself, so it's definitely not a good pre-FP city. Also, I'm not sure what happened in my previous sims, but the three southern core cities + Invoice does lose Karina a shield. (probably due to being nearer to Legopolis.) However, the southern core + Abilene + Horsefish + Abilene is fine; it seems OCN isn't going anywhere for a while, only which cities are effected.

So, it may be a good idea to build a settler in Forkmouth as Sharpe was suggesting in #legoland today (though whether or not to wait for the horse is a also a question). Logville will provide the Tiberium settler, and Farmerville will be a major settler contributor too. (Since these cities don't have much of a corruption effect, I suggest we settle them ASAP.)

Edit: Also, if we build a settler instead of two workers in Panama, we can send the settler south and relieve Fville of one more settler; half the south would be settled by non-Fville settlers, leaving only 3 cities needing to be settled by Fville, so more workers could be built there.

[Sharpe]

Based on this information and the discussion I had with Kloreep in the chatroom I think we should consider the following:

(Baring any commerce corruption difficulties that might still arise from the scenario analysis)

Forkmouth - Horse then merc then settler then courthouse - settler should be complete in 10 to 12 turns

Zargonia - Harbor then settler then galley - settler complete in 11 turns.

Farmerville - to stay building workers for longer than planned

IMHO, the Forkmouth merc should be sent down to protect either the Quanto or the ahmyfoot location and then serve as its garrison to protect it from barbs but that decision belongs to the MA.

Kloreep also mentionted the possibility of building a settler at Panama. If that remains the case, we would need to decide whether to have a 4th city location to settle or whether to stop the Logville settler and switch it to a worker (obviously we would also have to stop the forest chop if we switched to a worker).

For a 4th city, I would consider Abilene or Horsefish to be the next best choices after Quanto, ahmyfoot and Tiberium. While Horsefish would give us the horse, it wouldn't be able to irrigate until Electricity, which would slow its growth a bit unless we avoided hills. Abilene would eventually have the cattle in its boundries but not until a temple was built, but it could be irrigated through ahmyfoot.

[vondrack]

Purely from strategic reasons - please, check what founding Crossing does to Karina. That site would be MUCH more important than any other, as it would allow us to complete our defensive "wall" on the eastern coast. As it is now, we have a serious "hole" just in the area where invasions would be likely to happen... Another city I would like to see founded right after the FP is finished would be Castlea - same reasons, but different area.

As long as we finish all planned horses and most planned mercs, I have no problem with some settlers (if they do not mess with Karina's corr/waste levels, of course).

[Tiberius]

I'd like to see a cathedral to solve the happiness problems in Panama, instead of settlers. This is an awesome commerce city and we should put it on work. After the Cathedral we ought to build here a library, market, the Collossus, etc.

[lmtoops]

Originally posted by vondrack
After learning about rankless artillery, I believe we should revise the build queues to use the barracked cities for building vet non-arty units only (sorry for the mess I caused):

Legopolis: cathedral, then a 600-shield wonder (most probably Bach's)
Jackson: worker, then horse, merc, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult merc or a city improvement
Farmerville: workers, later settlers
Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace
Red Bricks: marketplace, then cathedral? (perhaps chopping those forests)
Forkmouth: catapult horse, merc, merc
Karina: Forbidden Palace
Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels
Dye Fields: marketplace
Logville: worker, then settler (chopping the forest)
Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc
Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks one or two catapults
Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace one or two catapults

Is this the current build plan thread? Vondrack mentioned having a build plan thread and this is the only one I could find.

[vondrack]

Yes, this is the "quick and dirty" build queue schedule I'm using when putting together new turn plans. If Kloreep had more time, it would be done in a much neater way in the "Building Timeline" thread, I assume.

[Sharpe]

The current "quick and dirty" suggested build order:

Farmerville: workers, later settlers
Forkmouth: horse, merc, merc
Karina: Forbidden Palace
Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels
Logville: worker, then settler (chopping the forest)
Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc
Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks one or two catapults

Here are some updated proposals that I think should be considered (feel free to comment - I haven't completely set them in stone yet)

Farmerville: workers workers and more workers
Forkmouth: merc, settler, courthouse (chop gameforest during courthouse or leave it until cathedral)
Karina: FP (done in about 13 turns) then worker or settler to get the pop down, then aqueduct or one of mktplace/library
Zargonia: harbor then settler then caravel (hopefully)
Logville: settler then mktplace or library (we will need to get a cathedral in soon too with the wheat there)
Sharpehaven: merc merc merc

The Forkmouth, Panama, Zargonia and Logville settlers should settle: Ahmyfoot, Quanto, Tiberium and either Abilene or Invoice
Tarzania: temple, walls, catapults

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Karina: FP (done in about 13 turns) then worker or settler to get the pop down, then aqueduct or one of mktplace/library

Karina can hold itself at nil growth (and at any pop level, thanks to the 2-food grasses around it), so I think we should skip the pop units and head straight for infrastructure. Karina will be a near-uncorrupted city, after all.

The Forkmouth, Panama, Zargonia and Logville settlers should settle: Ahmyfoot, Quanto, Tiberium and either Abilene or Invoice

Invoice isn't a possibility, as Karina loses a shield with all the three southern core cities (which I say to of course ), and the only settler that will be nearby for a while is Panama's, which I think should head south. It is definitely a post-FP city to settle, though; so maybe Jackson could produce a settler using a full food box, or Panama could do one again on its pop cycle.

Any southern city should be fine for a fourth, though, especially as it would likely be post-FP.

Also, I would like to propose a camp city sometime post-FP on the hill W-W of Logville. Even with both Logville and Tiberium at pop 8, there should be a grassland or two and some hills available to work, and so it would be an ideal pop-4 city (possibly pop 6 after Bach's) for artillery and pop unit production.

[vondrack]

Agreed with Kloreep on Karina - no pop units, pure infra. Great (high-shield, high-commerce, low-corruption) site for infra.

There is one site that has not been mentioned, which I consider extremely important from the strategic point of view - Crossing. I would found that one with one of the settlers we are currently producing. Without Crossing, we have a gaping hole in our defense line on the eastern coast (and basically an "open road" to Karina). Crossing will complete the line of defense all the way from Jackson in the North to Logville in the South. It may not be the most productive and fastest growing city we will have, but its strategic value far outweights that disadvantage (IMHO).

So, I would go for Crossing first (does not affect Karina, tested by Kloreep), then Tiberium, Ahhmyfoot (if it does not affect Karina) and other cities only after the FP would be done (should be in 16 turns, not 13). But once the FP is done, let's move fast - let's have some settlers ready.

BTW, before settling more spots on the western coast, I would also found Oasis (in the center of the Farmerville, Zargonia, Crossing triangle). Reasons: no garrison needed, makes our territory contiguous, has a floodplain tile to work, close to FP.

Keep in mind that we will have to protect the new coastal cities. Founding ~5 new cities exposed to outside invasions "to be garrisoned later" would be very risky. That's why cities in our interior will be somewhat "cheaper" to found...

[Sharpe]

There is one site that has not been mentioned, which I consider extremely important from the strategic point of view - Crossing. I would found that one with one of the settlers we are currently producing.

Agreed that Crossing is strategically located but it is absolutely TERRIBLE for food production with nothing but desert and hills. Its only good food source would be from a harbor.

Oasis is nearly as bad for food aside from the flood plain (didn't know it even had a flood plain down there).

I would prefer to found those cities when we can "throw away" a settler - they would be perfect for Farmerville settlers for instance.

I would be willing to consider Crossing for the Logville settler to be completed in about 17 turns.

As for post FP, actually most of these cities are post-FP. The Panama settler won't get down to the south for another 11 turns, the Zargonian settler won't be down in the south for another 16 turns, and the Forkmouth settler won't be down there for another 17 or so turns. Meanwhile the FP will be complete in 13 to 14 turns.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Agreed that Crossing is strategically located but it is absolutely TERRIBLE for food production with nothing but desert and hills. Its only good food source would be from a harbor.

That's not 100% true - there is one regular grassland, which can be irrigated with relative ease (Logville wheat, then N & NE). That would allow Crossing to grow up to pop 4, working the irrigated grassland and three hills - that's not bad at all, at least not for the first ~20-25 turns. We should be able to build a harbour there quite easily then - and with a harbour, Crossing will be a decent pop 6 city (up to pop 11 with an aqueduct). In my eyes, this is enough to make its strategic value outweight the fact that we would be able to build a city somewhere else with a better long-term growth potential. Seeing that "road to Karina", which is going to be the heart of our second core just makes me feel... well, I would rather have it closed ASAP.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Oasis is nearly as bad for food aside from the flood plain (didn't know it even had a flood plain down there).

The food situation in Oasis (its site is SW of the moutain) is actually perfectly fine. Aside from the floodplains (4 food/t), there will be three instantly available grasslands (NW-NW, NE-NE, N-NE) and two choppable forests (N, N-NW). The two forest chops would help us to speed up the construction of the most basic infrastructure, plus we have two fully improved hills that Oasis could occasionally borrow from Zargonia. The floodplain would help it grow to a reasonable pop fast enough.

Plus, Oasis would be on a river - no aqueduct needed to grow past pop 6, lots of commerce. And, as is the case with Crossing, helps to fill in a gap in our territory, making it easier to defend.

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for post FP, actually most of these cities are post-FP. The Panama settler won't get down to the south for another 11 turns, the Zargonian settler won't be down in the south for another 16 turns, and the Forkmouth settler won't be down there for another 17 or so turns. Meanwhile the FP will be complete in 13 to 14 turns.

Ah, right, I forgot we will be adding a pop point to Karina soon, which will speed the FP build up. You do have a point on the timing... it will take some time to get those settlers down there, yes.

Actually, speaking about the settler builds... what about building a settler in Jackson now (right after the merc currently in works is finished)? Jackson has, for all/most practical purposes, the same useful shield output at pop 5 as at pop 6, plus it has constant problems with keeping under pop 6 (unlike Forkmouth, e.g., which is on a river)...

[Kloreep]

On Jackson: I think it's too late to build a settler, as its food box is already overflowing, but what about Merc(finished in 90 BC)-Worker-Merc-Settler? This settler could found Invoice, for the settler would be finished in 8 turns, and would take up to 7 turns to reach the city site. Invoice would be founded post-FP and wouldn't interfere with the FP build.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
On Jackson: I think it's too late to build a settler, as its food box is already overflowing, but what about Merc(finished in 90 BC)-Worker-Merc-Settler? This settler could found Invoice, for the settler would be finished in 8 turns, and would take up to 7 turns to reach the city site. Invoice would be founded post-FP and wouldn't interfere with the FP build.

No problem with the foodbox in Jackson - thanks to the mined desert, we can now fully control its food surplus without sacrificing shields or commerce. Just use the desert instead of one bonus grass and you can delay the growth at will.

[Kloreep]

True... but there's really no point, as the box will just stay full with a bonus grass. Working the desert would waste potential food production. Not to mention we'd either have to send this settler south too, or send it to Invoice and delay the founding a few turns (Invoice interferes with Karina's corurption). Also, this new worker can join Jack in clearing the jungle, making it take 7 turns to clear instead of 12.