Master Builder Thread

[vondrack]

A lot depends on if we succeed to secure Sistine's for us through diplomatic negotiations. If we do, we can safely build Bach's first, Sistine later, and save our GA for the moment our FP core is ready and all our cities founded.

Voxes hopping to Legos Minor will also affect our plans. If they do become our neighbours, we can simply forget about the whole GA wonder triggering trouble - we will be able to trigger our GA at any time by simply having them sacrifice a warrior to our merc (all we would need is to have them keep one warrior ready and us keeping one merc ready for this occasion - possibly positioning them next to each other so that we can ask for the trigger at any time).

I believe we shall wait a bit until making a decision. For the moment, until something changes, I would consider our military the priority #1.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
For the moment, until something changes, I would consider our military the priority #1.

I agree, but don't you think that Jackson and Forkmouth could handle it alone, without Panama?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I agree, but don't you think that Jackson and Forkmouth could handle it alone, without Panama?

Frankly - no, not really... Jackson and Forkmouth can spit out an attacker+defender (merc+knight) combo every 5-6 turns. As much as I hate building military units that will most probably never be used (but as a deterrent), I do not think that's enough.

[vondrack]

Kloreep, with my recent "planning" in the Grand Defense Plan thread, can we confirm our build queues for the next 10-20 turns here?

Here is what I am currently thinking of (the first thing is always the thing being currently built in that city):

Legopolis: cathedral, then a 600-shield wonder
Jackson: horse, then worker, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult
Farmerville: workers all the time
Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace
Red Bricks: marketplace, then cathedral? (perhaps chopping those forests)
Forkmouth: catapult, merc, merc
Karina: Forbidden Palace
Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels
Dye Fields: marketplace
Logville: workers, perhaps one settler? (chopping that forest over there)
Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc
Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks?
Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace?

[Kloreep]

All plans not commented on

Jackson: horse, then worker, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult

How about Horse, worker, walls, Merc, worker, Merc? (See Kloreepville)

Farmerville: workers all the time

Up till a point, yes... however, it should start building settlers close to the FP's completion. The temple was rushed on turn 103, so I think Settler building should start ~15 turns from now.

Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace

Agreed with everything up till the market. Let's see where we are then; right now, I'd love to put Panama on infrastructure.

Logville: workers, perhaps one settler? (chopping that forest over there)

I'd say keep it on workers. The city's growing faster than it can build workers anyhow, so let's stick with the most efficient pop-draining unit.

Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks?

Walls: Dunno about Barracks; we might want to build some Cats first.

Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace?

Kloreepville isn't going to be pulling in all that much commerce and would need an aqueduct & harbor to. But it'll be a fairly high-production city (13 spt before corruption at pop 6, 10 spt before corruption at pop 5), so I think it should produce some catapults after the temple, then a Barracks, then some units.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
How about Horse, worker, walls, Merc, worker, Merc? (See Kloreepville)

I believe this would not work too weel, unless we artificially slowed down the city growth. Walls shall take 2 turns, Merc 3 turns, that's 5 turns and 5 turns is the time Jackson needs to fill its foodbox in. That was my primary reason to include the 2-turn cat there...

Originally posted by Kloreep
Up till a point, yes... however, it should start building settlers close to the FP's completion. The temple was rushed on turn 103, so I think Settler building should start ~15 turns from now.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Agreed with everything up till the market. Let's see where we are then; right now, I'd love to put Panama on infrastructure.

And agreed - that marketplace I put there was to mark the beginning of the "infrastructure period" in Panama. Marketplace, then Cathedral & Library (or the other way round).

Originally posted by Kloreep
I'd say keep it on workers. The city's growing faster than it can build workers anyhow, so let's stick with the most efficient pop-draining unit.

With the forest chop, one settler would be as efficient as two workers (as far as draining pop goes).

Originally posted by Kloreep
Kloreepville isn't going to be pulling in all that much commerce and would need an aqueduct & harbor to. But it'll be a fairly high-production city (13 spt before corruption at pop 6, 10 spt before corruption at pop 5), so I think it should produce some catapults after the temple, then a Barracks, then some units.

I have one problem with building cats (or any other military units) in Kloreepville - and that is I hate building regular units, even if they are just arty. With barracks in Panama, Sharpehaven, and Forkmouth, building barracks in Kloreepville, too (read: making vondrack happy about Kloreepville building military units) seems like a bit of overkill at this moment (later on, I believe all of our coastal cities should have barracks, strictly for defense purposes.

So, considering Kloreepville is part of the "first city ring" around Legopolis, I would suggest using its production potential mostly for infrastructure building. If aqueduct is what's needed to make a marketplace viable, then let's start with an aqueduct... once the happiness wonder in Legopolis is finished (and that should be in ~30-35 turns), we shall need it.

Or, we can start with a harbour - not because of bringing in more commerce (only three coastal tiles), but to have a second decent harbour city. I don't think that Zargonia will be enough to fully cover our naval production anyway (plus, it will need some time to work on its infrastructure a bit, too), so another harboured city would be nice.

[Tiberius]

Speaking of Zargonia: looking t the save I noticed that this city will always be quite corrupted, with or without FP. We ought to build a Courthouse here at some point (the sooner the better). I think the same goes for Tarzania and Forkmouth.

[Kloreep]

I can finally respond... been busy with tennis this weekend.

Originally posted by vondrack

Originally posted by Kloreep
How about Horse, worker, walls, Merc, worker, Merc? (See Kloreepville)

I believe this would not work too weel, unless we artificially slowed down the city growth. Walls shall take 2 turns, Merc 3 turns, that's 5 turns and 5 turns is the time Jackson needs to fill its foodbox in. That was my primary reason to include the 2-turn cat there...

Okay, let's go with your queue.

Originally posted by Kloreep
I'd say keep it on workers. The city's growing faster than it can build workers anyhow, so let's stick with the most efficient pop-draining unit.

With the forest chop, one settler would be as efficient as two workers (as far as draining pop goes).

True. So, let's go for it; the upcoming Logville worker can do the chop.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Kloreepville isn't going to be pulling in all that much commerce and would need an aqueduct & harbor to. But it'll be a fairly high-production city (13 spt before corruption at pop 6, 10 spt before corruption at pop 5), so I think it should produce some catapults after the temple, then a Barracks, then some units.

I have one problem with building cats (or any other military units) in Kloreepville - and that is I hate building regular units, even if they are just arty. With barracks in Panama, Sharpehaven, and Forkmouth, building barracks in Kloreepville, too (read: making vondrack happy about Kloreepville building military units) seems like a bit of overkill at this moment (later on, I believe all of our coastal cities should have barracks, strictly for defense purposes.

So, considering Kloreepville is part of the "first city ring" around Legopolis, I would suggest using its production potential mostly for infrastructure building. If aqueduct is what's needed to make a marketplace viable, then let's start with an aqueduct... once the happiness wonder in Legopolis is finished (and that should be in ~30-35 turns), we shall need it.

I didn't realize how deep this loathing of non-vet units goes, if it extends to rankless Arty!

But seriously, let's use non-Barracks cities for our Cats as much as possible. Jackson may need to build some to go along with its growth cycle, but the other cities shouldn't waste their barrack's time on it, IMO. I'm not sure how good an investment an Aqueduct would be; I certainly don't think we should start on one until we're set on building Bach's within turns of its completion.

While I agree Kloreepville isn't the best city to be tied up with units, it's a better choice than Panama, which I think should be relieved of its burden ASAP so it can build some more infrastructure. (Panama is a river city, Kloreepville isn't; hence, Panama gets more commerce and won't need 100 shields to grow beyond size 6. Both current and future potential lean toward infrastructure in Panama IMO.)

Or, we can start with a harbour - not because of bringing in more commerce (only three coastal tiles), but to have a second decent harbour city. I don't think that Zargonia will be enough to fully cover our naval production anyway (plus, it will need some time to work on its infrastructure a bit, too), so another harboured city would be nice.

A harbor wouldn't be a bad choice either. But I definitely think Kloreepville should go for units right now, rather than lots of buildings.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
I didn't realize how deep this loathing of non-vet units goes, if it extends to rankless Arty!

Would you believe I have never noticed artillery units had no ranks? Was it so from the very first version of Civ3?

Obviously... I stand corrected here and you are of course right that non-barracked cities should be used to build arty pieces as much as possible.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Jackson may need to build some to go along with its growth cycle, but the other cities shouldn't waste their barrack's time on it, IMO.

Actually, with this MAJOR new discovery of rankless artillery I am all for using Jackson for 30 shield vet units only, leaving cats to non-barracked cities. We do have means to make Jackson grow +1F only, generating +12/+9spt (working cattle, two bonus grasses, one hill, and one coast all the time, alternating the sixth labourer between a hill and a coast... 12+9+9=30, which is just perfect). One "life cycle" will then be three units and one worker. Sweet.

Originally posted by Kloreep
While I agree Kloreepville isn't the best city to be tied up with units, it's a better choice than Panama, which I think should be relieved of its burden ASAP so it can build some more infrastructure. (Panama is a river city, Kloreepville isn't; hence, Panama gets more commerce and won't need 100 shields to grow beyond size 6. Both current and future potential lean toward infrastructure in Panama IMO.)

Agreed.

[vondrack]

After learning about rankless artillery, I believe we should revise the build queues to use the barracked cities for building vet non-arty units only (sorry for the mess I caused):

Legopolis: cathedral, then a 600-shield wonder (most probably Bach's)
Jackson: worker, then horse, merc, walls, catapult, worker, merc, worker, catapult merc or a city improvement
Farmerville: workers, later settlers
Panama: horse, then horse, worker, merc, worker, marketplace
Red Bricks: marketplace, then cathedral? (perhaps chopping those forests)
Forkmouth: catapult horse, merc, merc
Karina: Forbidden Palace
Zargonia: harbour, then galleys/caravels
Dye Fields: marketplace
Logville: worker, then settler (chopping the forest)
Sharpehaven: barracks, then merc, merc
Tarzania: temple, then walls and barracks one or two catapults
Kloreepville: temple, then marketplace one or two catapults

[Sharpe]

With GoW now at 14 cities and RP having just built their 13th city and with GS already seemingly well ahead of us, I think that we need to move settlers up in the priority list as we don't want to fall behind in our city amounts (especially as we have the most room left) - especially as we are using a settler up with the New Voice construction.

We need to get Port Hammer and Suez done very soon and then concentrate on getting some of those southern cities built before the FP is completed in less than 25 turns.

[vondrack]

The number of cities itself is more of a disadvantage, rather than of an advantage... mostly because of the corruption/waste levels. Keep in mind that despite being on par at best as far as the number of cities goes, we are MUCH stronger economically than any Bobian nation. Plus, in our case, more cities also mean more territory to defend -> more military needed. Considering the fact that newly founded cities can/will contribute little to nothing to our economy (until the FP is in place), I do not believe we should speed up the settler production too much immediately.

Namely, Port Hammer will undoubtedly have to wait for the FP completion, as that site lacks production potential. Suez aka Invoice/Benelux has a pretty high strategic importance, that's true, but I would time its foundation to about ~20 turns from now, too.

The settler from Logville (done in ~15-20 turns) should found either Tiberium or Crossing) and I assume we will have 2-3 more settlers ready to plant new cities right after Karina completes its FP build. I would actually try to arrange things so that we found a couple of new cities very shortly after the FP completion, but not earlier.

Farmerville should start producing settlers once it is able to operate at full pop 6 (that is, after its poprush unhappiness wears off - which should be in about 5 turns, as the poprush was done on turn 103).

[Sharpe]

As we are commercial we do have a small advantage regarding the corruption/waste from city amounts. That being said we do need to continue to fill up our area to discourage any thought of landing here

As for our huge economic advantage , don't forget that RP is in monarchy right now - I suspect that our advantage in Productivity and GNP will almost disappear when they switch to Republic, which will probably be after next turn. We should still hold an advantage in Mfg goods but only because RP probably hasn't done as much mining as we have recently.

As for more territory, Port Hammer actually helps us as it is near our core - we can even not connect it up completely and so have Panama become an upgrade center and Suez is strategic and already has a defensive unit there anyway.

As for building before the FP is complete, we can use the cities to build workers and already have them in place and have them at a decent population sooner than waiting for the FP. Initally I am only talking about Quanto, ahmyfoot and Tiberium - the others in the deep south can wait until well after the FP - even some of the ones I mention can wait until around the time of the FP, but a good goal is to keep pace with the other civs - besides we need to replace our settler that is building New Voice anyway.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for our huge economic advantage , don't forget that RP is in monarchy right now - I suspect that our advantage in Productivity and GNP will almost disappear when they switch to Republic, which will probably be after next turn. We should still hold an advantage in Mfg goods but only because RP probably hasn't done as much mining as we have recently.

I seriously doubt this. Our huge MfgGoods & GNP advantage over the #3 (need not be the RPers, btw) is actually much more likely the result of us being industrious, of us having LOTS of workers, and of us having lots of high pop cities.

Besides, the corr/waste corruption difference between Monarchy & Republic is said to be much smaller than, say, the difference between the Despotism & Monarchy. (I think it was Kloreep mentioning this)

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for more territory, Port Hammer actually helps us as it is near our core - we can even not connect it up completely and so have Panama become an upgrade center and Suez is strategic and already has a defensive unit there anyway.

No arguments over the importance of Suez... just that every city that is going to be placed closer to Legopolis than Karina will quite likely bite a bit out of the Karina's production, delaying the FP completion there. And the effect of the FP will be HUGE (MUCH bigger than the Mon->Rep switch for RPers, e.g.)

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for building before the FP is complete, we can use the cities to build workers and already have them in place and have them at a decent population sooner than waiting for the FP. Initally I am only talking about Quanto, ahmyfoot and Tiberium - the others in the deep south can wait until well after the FP - even some of the ones I mention can wait until around the time of the FP, but a good goal is to keep pace with the other civs - besides we need to replace our settler that is building New Voice anyway.

As pointed out in the previous paragraph, the low or negligible production of the newly founded cities is not the problem. The problem is that they actually increase waste and corruption in our existing, productive cities (that are farther away from Legopolis than those new cities would be).

For example, Port Hammer would increase waste and corruption everywhere beyond Red Bricks... that would include Forkmouth, Farmerville (!), Zargonia, and Karina (!). I do not think founding Port Hammer would be that good idea. Suez, btw, would do pretty much the same... I do not think that rushing the foundation of new cities would help us... though if we have spare settlers, I'd not oppose settling the Southern coast (as those cities will not affect the output of our existing centers).

[Kloreep]

pp