Constitution : state the [TBA]s

[Spiffor]

OK, our constitution is nearing completion, but there's one problem : many things are still to be decided. Should we hold election every month ? Every 2 weeks ? Every 10 turns ?
Should we need 66% for the constitution to be amended ? 75 % ? 51% ?

This thread is intended to discuss what we want regarding these figures. Please state your opinion !

The [TBA]s we have to decide are :

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate.
2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.

Edited by Tiberius (here, revenge is sweet, Spiffor I'm editing your post )

Edited by Spiffor : Do you see now how much pleasure it brings ?
Edited by Tiberius : Too bad this edit spam doesn't rise your post count


The results after 10 votes:

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate
2 month - 2 votes
one month – 7 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
one month – 9 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
66% - 3 votes (I considered 67% being 66%; we can decide this later)
51% - 7 votes

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Note: [TBA] of the Senate or of the votes?
51% - 2 votes
66% - 7 votes
60% - 1 vote

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
3 days or 50% - 6 votes
4 days or 50% - 2 votes
3 days or 66% – 1 vote
3 days or 75% - 1 vote

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
51% - 8 votes
75% - 2 vote

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
7 days or 66% - 1 vote
5 days or 66% - 8 votes
5 days or 75% - 1 vote

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
51% - 5 votes
66% - 5 votes

[ZargonX]

Great idea, Spiffor. This thread will be alot easier to digest and discuss than the main constitution thread!

[Tiberius]

1. one month
2. one month
3. 66%
4. 50%+1
5. 3 days, 50%
6. 50%+1
7. 7 days, 66%
8. 66%

Thanks for doing it, Spiffor. I suppose it should have been my job (given the fact that I was updating lately the Constitution draft).

[Spiffor]

(Note : when I say 50% majority, I mean 50% of voters + 1)

1 & 2 :
3 weeks look good to me. I fear that 2 weeks would be too short, and one month too long.

3 : I say a 50% majority. We are builders, and I assume we'll all be prudent before declaring war. If the majority of the team want to declare war, that really means there are good reasons. If there is a draw, the satus quo is kept (no presidential tie-break)

4 : 66%. Less would mean too much ministerial instabilty, but more would mean we're sure not to oust someone ever, except if he is really really terrible.

5 : I say 3 days or 50%. For short term policy (like "where should we move our warrior", I say a one day poll is valid if he got 50% participation

6 : 50% of the whole senate (9 people), except if we include war declarations and amendments in this rule.

7 : I say 5 days (I think a week is beginning to be too long, re the master builder poll), or 66% participation.

8 : We should amend the constitution with the same majority clause than what we need to adopt it. If we only need 50% majority to adopt the constitution, it would be only normal to amend it with 50%

[vondrack]

Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s

The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate.

One month, possibly even two months.

The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].

One month.

Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.

51% - what Spiffor says (THAT many builders wishing to wage war really means something...).

The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.

whatever... 2/3 is fine with me, 51% as well.

A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

3 days, 50% (currently, that means 9 votes - as everybody must have noticed, a poll with 9 voters is a pretty "successful" one... we do not have that many 9-vote-or-more polls... )

As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed

51%

Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

5 days, 66%

The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.[/list]

What Spiffor says - the same as what we adopt the Constitution with. 51%

Note, please, that from the mathematical point of view, the "50% + 1 vote" clause is not what you want to say. For a Senate with odd number of members (say, 19), 50% is a non-integer number, say 19/2=9.5 votes. +1 raises it too high - say, to 10.5 votes. A notion gaining 10 votes (a majority!) would not pass, as 10<10.5, even though it is obvious that it should. 51% does the job for Senates up to 100 members.

Oh, and Spiffor, thanks for taking care of this!

[Kloreep]

Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s

1. 1 month.
2. 1 month.
3. 51%
4. This is a tough one. Maybe a 60% compromise?
5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least 4 days or if at least 50% of the Senate voted in it.
6. This isn't necessary if 50% of the senate voting for any option is used, but if it isn't, this one should be 50%.
7. 5 days or 66%[*] The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
8. 50%. I would normally see this as too low, but we're a small group and I think we should have a fluid constitution.

[lmtoops]

Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s

1. and 2. One month, simply because it's easier to track.

3. and 4. 2/3, these are serious decisions and should require greater than 50%. I do not agree with the argument for 50% on War polls. Just because we are builders does not mean all will be slow to war.

5. 3 days and 2/3, A 50% vote by the Senate on day 1 can easily be reversed by day 3. But I not too concerned, so I would not oppose 51% (per vondrack)

6. 51%

7. 5 days and 2/3

8. 2/3, serious decisions warrant a 2/3 majority IMHO.

[delmar]

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate.

1 month

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].

1 month

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.

67%

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.

The "This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass." part sounds to me like we are requiring certain number of people to vote to consider it valid. Is this the case? I think it would be a good idea. I would say 50% of the Senate should agree on the removal, not 50% of the people who voted. And not 51% of the Senate, as 50% is clearly the majority considering that the person to be removed is also a member of the Senate.

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

3 days, 75%. In a case where a decision absolutely must be made before the 3 days are over, any poll result is binding. This might seem strange but considering our egalitarian approach I feel that this is the only logical decision. Otherwise we would implicitly acknowledge that the president (or whoever makes the move) can make a better decision than those who voted. If I understand the situation correctly, this is not what the majority believes here (see veto rights and such).

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed

51% seems to be the logical answer here but I will say 75% keeping in mind that the time while the poll is open might be used to provide additional information that might change the opinion of those who already voted, and in certain cases might change the poll option themselves.

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

Not sure what to say here. First reaction would be to make it difficult to declare war, of course. But then declaring war one turn earlier or later might be a question of life or death. If someone lands 100 knights next to a major coastal city, will we wait 5-7 days to declare war? Or even 2-3 days for the majority of the citizens to visit the forum? I think we need to refine this and separate the issue of self-defense versus agression. Assuming that the intention here was to set the limit for an agressive war (and for the ammendement/election/removal part), I will suggest 5 days or 75%.

For self-defense, perhaps based on the fact whether there are enemy units within attack range to any of our cities (not necessarily in our territory!), I will suggest 18 hours or 100%.

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.

67%

[Tiberius]

The results so far:

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate
one month – 5 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
one month – 5 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
66% - 3 votes (I considered 67% being 66%; we can decide this later)
51% - 3 votes

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Note: [TBA] of the Senate or of the votes?
51% - 2 votes
66% - 3 votes
60% - 1 vote

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
3 days or 50% - 3 votes
4 days or 50% - 1 vote
3 days or 66% – 1 vote
3 days or 75% - 1 vote

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
51% - 5 votes
75% - 1 vote

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
7 days or 66% - 1 vote
5 days or 66% - 4 votes
5 days or 75% - 1 vote

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
51% - 3 votes
66% - 3 votes

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by delmar
If someone lands 100 knights next to a major coastal city, will we wait 5-7 days to declare war? Or even 2-3 days for the majority of the citizens to visit the forum?

In the situation you've described somebody would most probably post a poll: "Declare or not war", while the FM would try to negotiate with the other team in the meantime. Should the negotiations fail and the poll is still invalid before the deadline, the President can declare war. "How come?", could be the logical question.
Well, Section 1 from the Article II of the Contitution says:

- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, or are harmful due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.

The wishes of the Senate didn't come in time (the poll is still invalid), not doing anything would be harmful, so he can act in the best interest of Legoland by declaring war.
What worries me though is that "Only the Senate can declare war". Hmm, I'm not that sure anymore.
You see, this is why I wanted a High Council in the first place, a ruling body that could have decide quickly in crisis situations, not leaving in the same time all the decision power to the President. I was overruled in this issue. I suppose we could add an ammendment for declarations of war.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by delmar
4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.

The "This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass." part sounds to me like we are requiring certain number of people to vote to consider it valid. Is this the case? I think it would be a good idea. I would say 50% of the Senate should agree on the removal, not 50% of the people who voted. And not 51% of the Senate, as 50% is clearly the majority considering that the person to be removed is also a member of the Senate.

Good point about the 50% and not 51% votes needed. Unless the person in question votes for the removal, too... In which case he should certainly be removed...

Originally posted by delmar
5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

3 days, 75%. In a case where a decision absolutely must be made before the 3 days are over, any poll result is binding. This might seem strange but considering our egalitarian approach I feel that this is the only logical decision. Otherwise we would implicitly acknowledge that the president (or whoever makes the move) can make a better decision than those who voted. If I understand the situation correctly, this is not what the majority believes here (see veto rights and such).

I guess you are a bit confused about this clause. Its purpose is to define, when poll results become binding for the president. We wanted to prevent a rushed poll with, say, three votes, 2 of them for & 1 against something, be binding (for the President, but that implies that the whole team will be affected). On the other hand, we wanted polls everybody had a fair chance to vote in (i.e. those opened for a reasonable period of time), be binding even if they do not receive the absolute majority of the Senator's votes. Should someone not vote in a three day poll, he will have to put up with that he let others decide (even if "others" were just two or three only). 75% of the Senate is currently 14 votes - that would NEVER happen and effectively render short polls posted under emergency situations impossible. As it seems, a poll that currently gets 9 votes is a poll where almost all our active members voted. If a poll gets 50% of the possible Senate votes, then it should be binding, as it apparently expresses the will of the majority of active members.

I believe that it goes without saying that the President or VP, whoever plays the turn for us, will consider the opinions expressed in polls even if they are not binding. They will just not be bound to act accordingly. If the President ignores the will of majority frequently (even if he was not formally bound to), I guess he will be unlikely to win the next elections anyway...

Originally posted by delmar
6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed

51% seems to be the logical answer here but I will say 75% keeping in mind that the time while the poll is open might be used to provide additional information that might change the opinion of those who already voted, and in certain cases might change the poll option themselves.

51% of ALL POSSIBLE Senators' votes, not 51% of the voting Senators. Once more than half our members vote for something, it is clear that the poll result is determined. No way it could change. If a new info appears, another poll should perhaps be posted (as the current one can't reflect any change of member's minds anyway).

[Tiberius]

Re: Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s

Originally posted by Kloreep
6. This isn't necessary if 50% of the senate voting for any option is used, but if it isn't, this one should be 50%.

Let's suppose the following rule will pass: "A poll is declared valid if opened for at least 3 days period or if at least 50% percent of the Senate voted in it.".

We want to decide something. Let's say that after one day, 60% of the senators have voted.
Situation 1
The result is 50%-50%. Obviously we won't close the poll, waiting 2 more days for the others to vote, too.
Situation 2
All those senators have voted the same option (100% votes from 60% of the senators) and thus there is no reason to keep the poll open.

[delmar]

Originally posted by vondrack
75% of the Senate is currently 14 votes - that would NEVER happen

Never say never, and anyway I don't think that this is a problem. I think this clause is for normal situations, and 3 days for a poll seems like a good guideline for normal polls.

and effectively render short polls posted under emergency situations impossible.

Which was exactly the reason why I suggested that any vote is closed/final/binding/sacred/whatever that has a clear majority and won't make sense after the next turn.

I believe that it goes without saying that the President or VP, whoever plays the turn for us, will consider the opinions expressed in polls even if they are not binding. They will just not be bound to act accordingly. If the President ignores the will of majority frequently (even if he was not formally bound to), I guess he will be unlikely to win the next elections anyway...

I personally don't have a problem with the above approach, I just feel that it is inconsistent with the fact that the team voted against a presidential veto 10 to 1.

51% of ALL POSSIBLE Senators' votes, not 51% of the voting Senators. Once more than half our members vote for something, it is clear that the poll result is determined. No way it could change. If a new info appears, another poll should perhaps be posted (as the current one can't reflect any change of member's minds anyway).

Probably I have a different interpretation about what it means that a poll is final and binding. I thought it means that there can't be another poll on the same topic. From the above, it seems like this is not the case (are we sure about this? pretty big surprise to me...), in which case my comments are obviously not valid.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by delmar
Which was exactly the reason why I suggested that any vote is closed/final/binding/sacred/whatever that has a clear majority and won't make sense after the next turn.

"Clear" majority? Explain, please. Is that a simple majority or some other majority?

Originally posted by delmar
I personally don't have a problem with the above approach, I just feel that it is inconsistent with the fact that the team voted against a presidential veto 10 to 1.

Veto power means the President can do things that are clearly against the will of the majority of the team. However, letting him do whatever he sees fit unless the majority or a significant part of the team instructs him otherwise is perfectly fine.

Originally posted by delmar
Probably I have a different interpretation about what it means that a poll is final and binding. I thought it means that there can't be another poll on the same topic. From the above, it seems like this is not the case (are we sure about this? pretty big surprise to me...), in which case my comments are obviously not valid.

I do not think we have ever discussed the issue of repeater polls. Valid, thus binding means that the President shall do whatever the poll tells him to.

[delmar]

Originally posted by vondrack

"Clear" majority? Explain, please. Is that a simple majority or some other majority?

I am glad you asked!

I meant "simple" majority and I used the word "clear" instead of adding the following sentence: "If the poll result is a tie, the president, of course, can choose the option he likes best."

Veto power means the President can do things that are clearly against the will of the majority of the team. However, letting him do whatever he sees fit unless the majority or a significant part of the team instructs him otherwise is perfectly fine.

This is a good observation. Are we saying then that "the president can't go against the majority of the senate but he can go against the majority of the voters (up to a certain limit)"? I have to point out that this still implies that the president is above the rest of the citizens (or doesn't it?), which is not necessarily bad just needs to be understood by everyone.

I do not think we have ever discussed the issue of repeater polls. Valid, thus binding means that the President shall do whatever the poll tells him to.

And I assume we expect him to do it ASAP. Is that right? If so, I still think that this approach might result in a situation where the information changing a lot of people's opinion might come too late simply because the president already proceeded as outlined in the binding vote.