Discussion for the The Chronicle of Legoland thread

[Sharpe]

Actually, I think Howard and Angus would reach the isthmus at the same time (6 turns to the plains square).

If that is the case, I would suggest that Howard continue to the isthmus and Angus do a little exploring around the mountains near Legoland initially then start heading southeast.

One question I have is what shall our 2nd city build first? A warrior or a merc?

If the 2nd city (we REALLY need to name this) builds a warrior we should keep Legoland on the Merc. If Angus goes to both mountains it will take him about 4 turns to get around to them both and that would only leave 3 turns until the Merc is completed. The warrior would only take a max of 5 turns (unless we mine).

Meanwhile I think Conan should continue his southern exploration especially as I suspect that there is someone below us remember that before our borders expanded we were in 6th place in disease with 11% (1 of 9 as jungle or floodplain) - it also appears that we have found the southern end of the jungle this turn as well.

I agree that Conan should head south next turn then turn back later one turn or two later to that hut.

Btw Vondrack - just need a little edit in the 3100bc chronicle as the population should be 1 not 3.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Actually, I think Howard and Angus would reach the isthmus at the same time (6 turns to the plains square).

If that is the case, I would suggest that Howard continue to the isthmus and Angus do a little exploring around the mountains near Legoland initially then start heading southeast.

The problem with this solution is that our Settler could still theoretically end up next to a barbarian village after moving to the designated site of the second city. Even though I admit that the probability is not that high, IF it happened, it would be a disaster. Losing a settler is much like being thrown back to the beginning of the game. The only way to make sure the settler stays safe is to have Howard check the sea-cow tile prior to moving the settler to the city site.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Btw Vondrack - just need a little edit in the 3100bc chronicle as the population should be 1 not 3.

Yup, thanks. Corrected. I usually take one of the older chronicle entries and "reply with a quote" to have something to start with (all the links and formatting)... I sometimes forget to update some of the less important data.

[vondrack]

Well...

Being asked by Jack to play the turn, I had to take the decisions. I basically did what I proposed in my last pre-turn post in this thread.

In order to ensure our Settler remains safe from barbarians, I moved Howard so that he will be able to check the sea-cow tile early next turn. This tile has been out of our sight for too long (it will be like 7-8 turns)... if a barbarian village emerged there while Howard was exploring the Northlands, we would lose our Settler on the next turn (as his view now is blocked by the last hill and he would spot the village only after moving to its immediate vicinity).

Second, in order to seal the isthmus ASAP, I sent Angus along the hills to N, planning to move him NW-NW-NW-W-NW. Taking this route, he will arrive at the isthmus in the same time (6 turns), but will be able to see more while on his way.

Third, to prevent leaving Legopolis undefended for too long, I changed the production from a Merc to a Warrior. This will delay the production of our Second Settler by 2 turns, but thanks to spending less time at pop 1 once the second Settlers is completed, the second Merc will be done only one turn later compared to the original schedule. See my calculations, updated for the extra warrior:



The table also shows that the Merc will be ready just in time to prevent any disorder at pop 3, allowing the extra warrior to set out exploring the Twin Peaks area and then southwards something like two to four turns prior to the Merc being completed.

Besides taking these decisions, I moved Conan as agreed upon before and told the worker to extend the road towards the second city site. Pottery will be discovered on the next turn (it was not possible to lower the research budget).

For the next turn, I suggest taking EXACTLY the following steps:

1) After discovering Pottery, choose Mysticism as our next research goal (it's the less appealing of the two cheapest unknown techs).
2) Move Howard East, upon the hill, and make sure there is no barbarian village on the sea-cow tile.
3) If there are no barbarians, move the settler NE to the designated city site. If there are barbarians there, hold the settler.
4) Let Conan pop the hut.
5) Whatever happens, set our research goal to Writing. Should we get THAT lucky and get Writing, go for Map Making. Set the research slider to 100%.
6) Move Angus NW.

[vondrack]

NOTICE

On the next turn, I intend to delete some of the files related to the first ten turns from the server. I will leave only the most important illustrations there, trashing savegames, F11 & F1 screens, plus most city screens.

Should anyone wish to keep these files for future reference, download them to your machine, please, they will no longer be available online.

[lmtoops]

Who can argue that kind of logic, not I. I support all your moves.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
Who can argue that kind of logic, not I. I support all your moves.

lmtoops, I am a bit uncertain now if you just like how nicely I put the words together to support my decisions or if you really think I did the best.

Anyway...

I played the turn very safe, taking no risks at all, at the expense of sacrificing a bit of our expansion speed. Playing SP, I would probably be more daring... but this demogame is a different beast, unnecessary failures would cost us dearly. We can't just Ctrl+Shift+Q... Considering our favourable starting location, I do not feel we are hard pressed to expand as fast as possible. I believe we can afford the luxury of being a bit cautious.

But that's just my point of view. If others prefer taking more risks, I would like to hear so. Whoever plays the turn shall play whatever the team wants to, not what he prefers to (Remember the second goody hut? I suggested we'd leave it be, majority said we'd pop it. I popped it and we got the Warrior Code... majority was right, I was wrong.).

I would appreciate everybody speaking his mind. Jack and me would better know how to play in case there are no set orders or something unexpected makes set orders more or less obsolete or too risky (like getting the GoW minimap did, IMHO).

[Sharpe]

5) Whatever happens, set our research goal to Writing. Should we get THAT lucky and get Writing, go for Map Making. Set the research slider to 100%.

I am sorry , but I STRONGLY disagree with this!!

While writing would be beneficial it is obvious that we are not likely to encounter any civs anytime soon unless they are south of us or beyond the isthmus.

We need to start uncovering the horse and iron strategic resources as soon as possible - or at least one of them.

While we have the capability to make mercs now, it is very likely that if we don't start researching either one of the the two techs we will be stuck. The others will know where the iron is and we won't and they will have the capability of building 3-2-1 units which have a decent chance of destroying our mercs.

Meanwhile our best counterunit the bowman would have the same probability of destroying their swordsmen.

Furthermore, we will also only have infantry units and not any mounted units to deal with situations which we must get there quickly!

While I agree with getting pottery first, we should get one of iron working or the wheel next then writing.

[rendelnep]

completely off topic-
But I have finally been able to make contact!!!
I haven't had good chance to get on the internet because I have just moved to New Zealand.

[vondrack]

Happy New Year, Sharpe!

Originally posted by Sharpe
While writing would be beneficial it is obvious that we are not likely to encounter any civs anytime soon unless they are south of us or beyond the isthmus.

Well, this is actually exactly my reason for considering Writing and Map Making topmost priority. Judging from various bits caught through the public forum and private chats with other teams plus the RP & GoW minimaps, I fear that the map is two continents, one with five civs (ND reportedly has contacts with FOUR other civs, putting these five on the same landmass), the other with us and one more one (either beyond the isthmus, or down across the jungle). There still is a possibility that the map is pangea, of course, but out of my experience, I doubt that.

This means we have very little to fear as far as another civ attacking us is concerned - the isthmus would be easy to defend and jungle blocks mounted units from carrying attacks (either completely or effectively), but have quite a lot to fear as far as isolation is concerned. Making contact with other civs ASAP is what we desperately need - staying isolated will inevitably lead to getting behind in tech race. Catching up could be very difficult.

Originally posted by Sharpe
We need to start uncovering the horse and iron strategic resources as soon as possible - or at least one of them.

Well, as for the Wheel. Wheel allows Chariots to be built, provided we have Horses. I can see very little tiles that could have Horses and even less of such that are to remain outside our territory in the near future - we are going to settle (and road!) the grassland areas anyway. And even if we got lucky and had Horses... Chariots would be quite useless to us. First because they can't operate in jungles, second because we are very unlikely to expand beyond the isthmus in the near future. Settling the jungle areas in the south is what we are likely to do first, considering the corruption and defendability factors. Thus, what use Chariots would be to us? We could use them as mobile forces in case someone invades our corelands... but archers and a fine road network will do that job, too. Thus, I can't see what kind of benefit learning Wheel actually brings.

As for the IW. Allows Swordsmen to be built, provided we have Iron. We are likely to have some Iron in our core area, but again - we are going to settle that area anyway (at least the "V"-shaped hill range). As for actually building Swordsmen - that will not happen for quite some time, as we will be cranking out Settlers, Workers, and Mercs for at least a thousand years. Anything else would be just wasting resources (IMHO, of course).

Originally posted by Sharpe
While we have the capability to make mercs now, it is very likely that if we don't start researching either one of the the two techs we will be stuck. The others will know where the iron is and we won't and they will have the capability of building 3-2-1 units which have a decent chance of destroying our mercs.

Meanwhile our best counterunit the bowman would have the same probability of destroying their swordsmen.

The chances of a Swordsman to destroy a Merc are exactly the same as the chances of an Archer to beat a Swordsman. The difference is in costs:

Archer = 20 shields
Swordsman = 30 shields
Numidian Mercenary = 30 shields

I guess this shows that anyone attacking us would be at a disadvantage, since our archer+merc forces would be having 50:50 chances of repelling the invasion, while costing less shields. Sure, having Swordsmen would be nice, but would just improve our situation, not make it significantly different. I would rather have three archers than two swordsmen...

Originally posted by Sharpe
Furthermore, we will also only have infantry units and not any mounted units to deal with situations which we must get there quickly!

Well, as I mentioned before, the jungle severely hampers any fast manoeuvres in the south. Chariots can't even enter it, Horsemen would be as good as foot units there. If we are speaking about our core area, a good road network we shall build anyway will do the trick.

Originally posted by Sharpe
While I agree with getting pottery first, we should get one of iron working or the wheel next then writing.

There is one more reason to go for Writing and Map Making:

1) suppose we are on a continent with just one more civ. Our primary goal then should be to get off this continent and make contacts with overseas civs. Otherwise, we would inevitably get behind in tech race.

2) suppose we are on a pangea. Other civs are closer to each other than we are to any other civ (otherwise, we would already have visitors knocking our door). It is much more important for them to research these techs than it is for us. Researching the same techs would limit our trading possibilities. Having Writing (maybe even Map Making!) would be awesome tech-trading-wise. I am sure we would be able to trade for the Wheel and IW (if not with someone else, then with GoW or RPers).

And the final note: researching the Writing is now a ministerial order. Should you wish to change it, you will have to set up a poll about it.

[Sharpe]

Happy New Year to you too Vondrack and to the rest of Legoland!

researching the Writing is now a ministerial order. Should you wish to change it, you will have to set up a poll about it.

Spiffor's reasoning for Writing is now partially out-of-date as it was assumed at the time that he made his order that GoW was probably on the isthmus and that we would be able to trade techs with them (especially military techs). However, a few hours later when we received the minimaps from GoW, it turned out that our assumption on the location of GoW was vastly incorrect.

I agree that The Wheel may not necessarily be a good choice due to the large concentration of jungle and mountains nearby and admittedly Iron Working is still expensive and admittedly that these techs will also lower in price as more civs get them.

However, I think that we need balance in our tech choices. I would normally agree with getting writing and map making as early as possible. But I think that we do need to get another military tech in between those two at least.

It would take at least 15 to 20 turns to get those two techs and probably more as we can't keep at near 100% tech for that long and the game will have changed a lot by then. It is possible that we may need military units by that point and we won't have them.

What I would want to see is another tech cost chart if possible. If writing will take about 10 turns max, I would agree with that; however, a weakness of writing is actually the many branches it opens - there will be temptation to go next into the techs it opens. We should thereafter instead research one of the military techs to maintain balance.

[Tiberius]

We might have to go into a tech the writing opens to us: if the isthmus leads to only a small landmass and we are on an island, Map Making should become top priority for us.

[Sharpe]

Tiberius,

I am not necessarily completely opposed to writing. You do bring up a possible good motive for getting writing - it would give us that map making option along with plenty of other options plus the ones we have now.

If the isthmus area is small we will likely have at least one city site there and if we are on an island we would likely have another non-jungle site south of the jungle at minimum

However,

- the next tech beyond writing was already being suggested

- several other people here have mentioned that they favor going after one of the military techs next

- the situation and assumptions that were in existance when Spiffor made the writing choice have changed a little bit

- no poll on the tech choice or info about tech costs was posted this time

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
It would take at least 15 to 20 turns to get those two techs and probably more as we can't keep at near 100% tech for that long and the game will have changed a lot by then. It is possible that we may need military units by that point and we won't have them.

Well, the only tech in question right now is Writing (80 beakers, if I am not mistaken). I mentioned Map Making only for the unlikely case we get Writing from the hut (highly unlikely, I'd say). Should we get Writing "free of charge", I would consider it just great to get Map Making (120 beakers) - which allows sea exploration! - so much ahead of others, while actually sacrificing very little in terms of research...

Originally posted by Sharpe
What I would want to see is another tech cost chart if possible. If writing will take about 10 turns max, I would agree with that; however, a weakness of writing is actually the many branches it opens - there will be temptation to go next into the techs it opens. We should thereafter instead research one of the military techs to maintain balance.

I am not 100% sure about my numbers, as I did not factor in the corruption, but according to my calculations, Writing should take 10 turns to discover, while Map Making (in case we get Writing from the hut) would be 13 or 14 turns.

After 10-14 turns, I do agree that we shall reevaluate our research strategy, as a lot can happen.

[ZargonX]

Looking at the most recent turn, I'd say we have a few "military" decisions to make. My suggestion would be to send Coward on an Easterly course into the hills. this should give us a good idea of how far the jungle really goes on. As for our newest addition, Gaul, I'd send him southwar along the coast for a while.

Are we still sending Aggie over to cover the isthmus? I noted the turn-around, but I wasn't quite sure the reason.

On a side note, I'm beginning to think that the barb setting for this map may be very low to none. In a normal game, I would have expected to have seen at least one or two wander in by now. If that is the case, that could be good for us. That means less chances for warmongers to level up their units fighting barbs, also denying them gold from disbanding camps. It also means we are safer from barbs coming in and tearing up our improvements. Of course, I could be completely wrong, and a hoarde could be lurking just through the palm trees...

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Are we still sending Aggie over to cover the isthmus? I noted the turn-around, but I wasn't quite sure the reason.

I thought we were sending him there. No idea what led Jack to turn him back.