Foreign Affairs Strategy

[vondrack]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
Do you mean stop using PM altogether? Or just make sure its OK to post the their content?

I meant just to make sure it's OK to post the content of diplomatic PMs to other members of the team in the private forum.

[lmtoops]

I have contacted Lux Invicta (what does this mean?). Attached is my post in their public forum. Please let me know if I left out anything. I don't think they have contacted us.
______________________________

As member of Legoland, I am pleased to announce that I an the ambassador to the Lux Invicta. I am your primary contact with the Legoland team.

I am an active member of Legoland, and that is where my allegance lies. But as ambassador to Lux Invicta, I promise to also keep in mind your needs. I fully understand that the best agreements are those that are in our mutual best interests.

My preference is that all communications are done via Apolyton PMs. All PMs that I sent are considered semi-public, in that your ambassador is free to quote any part of my PMs in your private forum. I requrest that you restrict my PMs to your private forum.

Thank you and here to the future success of both our nations,
Lmtoops

[ZargonX]

I have received my first PM from Panzer32, our GoW ambassador. He has given me permission to post content in the private forum, and I have given him the same for his forum. Rather than post the entire message, I will put up the main points in brief.

[ZargonX]

Ok, so here is the summary of the first diplomatic communications with GoW. These are paraphrases of what Panzer32 sent to me.

-The GoW is willing to work with us, for a price. They think that as builders, we will need a strong military ally. they have several services to offer:

-Mercenaries for Hire. If we wish to fight a war, but don't feel like doing it ourselves, they'll do it for us. Any captured cities would be handed over to us at the conclusion. Price varies.

-"Golden Age" insurance. They say that for the cost of 1 gold a turn, they will keep a warrior in reserve until we are ready to have a golden age triggered. They will sacrifice the warrior to our unit, and viola. Also, this would require a deposit of a tech or resources.

-They claim we can trust them in making deals, because they know that as a war-making civ, the first time they break a deal, no one will ever trust them again.

-I have permission to post the contents of his PMs unless otherwise specified.

So, there you have it. While they claim they are more than willing to sell their services to others, one has to wonder how long until they just start demanding "protection money." Plus, this makes them an even greater threat, because someone could just pay them off to go to war with us. We must definately be wary in our dealings with them, I feel.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by lmtoops
I have contacted Lux Invicta (what does this mean?).

It is latin. AFAIK lux means light while invicta means invincible.

[delmar]

Dear Vondrack,

I am a brand new citizen of Legoland and haven't had much chance to read all the the posts in this private forum. Therefore I apologize if I missed something and the following issues were discussed already:

1.) I am wondering based on what we think we know which group uses which tribe. I am especially doubtful about Gathering Storm being Egypt.

2.) On a related note, is it a fair statement that much of our Foreign Strategy (e.g. what tech we should trade to whom) is based on what we learnt on the public forum of other teams? If it is indeed like that, I would like our Department of Foreign Affairs to consider the possibility that other teams (especially Gathering Storm) uses their public forum for desinformation.

3.) On yet another related note, I would strongly recommend that our Department of Foreign Affairs adopt this techinque and get actively involved into spreading misleading information.

4.) How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)? Do we have an analysis evaluating the usefulness of having a Golden Age at various stages?

5.) Before I was granted citizenship to Legoland, I was reading the public forums of the teams. My impression on the GoW team was that they started out as a real bully, but then they realized that making everybody their enemy too early is not a good strategy. Therefore I find it likely that they are sincerely looking for allies. Furthermore I do think that Legoland is a good match for GoW, in fact I would have suggested to initiate such a cooperation with GoW myself.

6.) While I certainly appreciate the opportunity, Your Highness , that I can offer my opinion on Foreign Affairs, I would find it useful to have a thread where only You could post, so that everyone is clear on what is the official opinion of the Department of Foreign Affairs and what is just discussion among ordinary citizens. This thread, IMHO, falls into the second category.

Thanks for listening!

Delmar

[delmar]

Originally posted by ZargonX
-"Golden Age" insurance. They say that for the cost of 1 gold a turn, they will keep a warrior in reserve until we are ready to have a golden age triggered. They will sacrifice the warrior to our unit, and viola. Also, this would require a deposit of a tech or resources.

I am not sure if this service is worth 1gpt. As I see it, triggering a Golden Age is not a problem for us, avoiding an early Golden Age is. If we managed to avoid an early Golden Age, then I would hope that we (being Builders) will ultimately trigger our Golden Age by building wonders.

Furthermore, how do we know that GoW is close enough to help us trigger our Golden Age whenever we want it? Just because of this issue alone, we shouldn't make this deal until we know where GoW Land is located.

Also, what does "deposit of a tech or resources" exactly mean? I hope it doesn't mean "give something to us now and we might give you something later on"?

[delmar]

Trading World Map

I think it would be very important to protect our world map. I am currently in an MP game (with notyoueither, btw), and I managed to keep about half of my territory, the biggest, most productive cities around my capital, a secret so far (we are around 1100AD). notyoueither also tried to do the same, he literally kills off any galley or scout approaching his boarders. Opponents seeing a big black patch in place of your country is a huge advantage. They don't know what resources you have, can't investigate your cities, can't plan for an attack.

Therefore I would suggest three things:

1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any).

2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning).

3.) Try to get maps from other Civs.

Delmar

[delmar]

Propaganda

Originally posted by vondrack on the Master Build Poll thread

Originally posted by delmar
maybe you should go out and play on human weakness. Maybe you could publish a newsletter that reports how many and well placed Mercs we have all over the map (slightly exegarating numbers and strategic value, of course ). That might be worth more than 3 Merc/city.

Like GoW did? Other teams would consider the info just as irrelevant as I consider GoW's fake pic. But if you feel like working on propaganda, feel free to do so. I just don't have time to.

No, like Gathering Storm did and made you believe that they are playing Egypt. Or better.

[vondrack]

Re: Propaganda

Originally posted by delmar
No, like Gathering Storm did and made you believe that they are playing Egypt. Or better.

Actually, if they really chose a different civ, then I consider it not a successful propaganda, but unfair play. As nye was setting up the game, he was the only one having the chance to pick a civ without others knowing which one it was. I seriously hope they did not do it.

[delmar]

Re: Re: Propaganda

Originally posted by vondrack

Actually, if they really chose a different civ, then I consider it not a successful propaganda, but unfair play. As nye was setting up the game, he was the only one having the chance to pick a civ without others knowing which one it was. I seriously hope they did not do it.

In that case: "or better".

As I mentioned at the beginning, I arrived a bit late to the scene and it is very likely that I missed some important points. For that matter I didn't know that nye personally set up the game and I was convinced that not knowing who is playing which tribe is part of the game. If Gathering Storm is playing Egypt and not the Iroquois or the Vikings, then I am greatly releaved. Do you happen to have a reference where nye stated in all seriousness that they are playing Egypt? An official list of teams with tribe specified would be great.

Having said that, I do think that desinformation should be part of our foreign policy and I will be sad if our Department of Foreign Affairs won't find this idea worth to implement it.

[vondrack]

Re: Re: Re: Propaganda

Originally posted by delmar
As I mentioned at the beginning, I arrived a bit late to the scene and it is very likely that I missed some important points. For that matter I didn't know that nye personally set up the game and I was convinced that not knowing who is playing which tribe is part of the game. If Gathering Storm is playing Egypt and not the Iroquois or the Vikings, then I am greatly releaved. Do you happen to have a reference where nye stated in all seriousness that they are playing Egypt? An official list of teams with tribe specified would be great.

It is in one of the threads in the public PtWDG forum, would have to look for the link... something like "State Your Choices".

AFAIK, every PBEM game is being set up by a single person. There is no way you could "join" a PBEM game under way. That's why there was someone setting the game up and that's why civ choices had to be made public.

Originally posted by delmar
Having said that, I do think that desinformation should be part of our foreign policy and I will be sad if our Department of Foreign Affairs won't find this idea worth to implement it.

It definitely is worth implementing, but not through the public PtWDG forum. We will implement it when the time comes, using diplomatic channels/ambassadors. Anything that is going to appear in the public forum is not going to be taken very seriously, exactly because it would be in the public forum. Making other teams ponder about whether the info we posted was true or false is just as good as leaving them ponder what the hell is going on in Legoland...

[delmar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Propaganda

Originally posted by vondrack
AFAIK, every PBEM game is being set up by a single person.

That person doesn't need to play though. Anyway, important thing is we really know who is playing which tribe.

It definitely is worth implementing, but not through the public PtWDG forum. We will implement it when the time comes, using diplomatic channels/ambassadors.

Sounds good.

[Spiffor]

Some info :

All teams stated officially their preferences in this thread. To sum it up

Legoland = Carthage
Lux Invicta = Ottomans
Gathering Storm = Egypt
Glory of War = China
Neu Demogyptica = Arabia
Roleplay = Spain
Vox Controli = Persia
There are no AIs

This is the public and definitive choice of Civs. Any Civ not following can be considered cheating. The only way to do this would have been to have a "true" choice from the beginning, to PM NYE, and to get his agreement to change Civ without advising anyone... Very unlikely.

Obviously, other teams will use the public forum for disinformation, just as much as we'll do. The biggest example for now is the fake "one tile island" which hosts the Glory of war. Also, it is doubtful the roleplayers started near a river.

How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)? Do we have an analysis evaluating the usefulness of having a Golden Age at various stages?

No idea. I'd say we try to maintain peace with our neighbours : our UU is a big threat until the time knights are around, and going at war against us only to trigger our GA will be a costly strategy for anyone that attacks us. We risk being at war, but I think the risk of a rival team attacking us only to trigger our GA is near nil.
We don't have analyses for now. If you want to produce one, I'll be extremely happy to read it

Furthermore, how do we know that GoW is close enough to help us trigger our Golden Age whenever we want it? Just because of this issue alone, we shouldn't make this deal until we know where GoW Land is located.

Absolutely. Anyways, we cannot give them gold per turn before we have contact with them, which can take some time.

1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any).
2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning).
3.) Try to get maps from other Civs.

1) Sure thing
2) We shouldn't be too gung ho. We should remain prudent before declaring war. Don't forget a rival Civ would have to trade its whole map to another Civ, and not only the chunk about us. Declaring war because people are scouting by us should be a question of circumstances, not a question of principles
3) Yes, but I highly doubt we could ever get maps, except in some very special cases.


I agree we should try to have a good relationship with the GoW : an alliance between builders and warmongers can be extremely powerful. However, we should never depend on them in any ways. If they are owerwhelmingly powerful (because we relied on them to be our force), they could grab our territory in no time.

[delmar]

Originally posted by Spiffor
No idea.

Then here is one: don't build any. Before you ban me from Legoland forever for infinit stupidity , let me tell you that I am not suggesting that we shouldn't build any Mercs, period. It is just an idea that could be considered, modified, constrained, etc.

And here is another one: play down the importance of a golden age. The Golden Age assurance offered by the GoW team is an excellent opportunity to do this. Maybe we should pretend we don't care when/if we have a golden age.

our UU is a big threat until the time knights are around,

You sure about this? I agree that attacking our UU is close to suicide before knights (unless someone has Immortals, of course... hmm, what was the tribe of Vox Controli again? ), but we being a threat... I don't know. What would you do if someone, whose capital is 50 tiles away, walked up to us with a conscript warrior received from a goody hut next to us and attacked one of our 3 Mercs, while we have two cities? Even if we give up our image and turn Legoland into a military organization, I wouldn't call ourselves a threat for thousands of years. Fortunately the above scenario is not very likely because (to my greatest surprise) there is only one expansionist civ among our opponents (thanks for confirming this info, btw), nonetheless it illustrates why I feel that this issue might be a bit more complicated than it sounds.

the risk of a rival team attacking us only to trigger our GA is near nil

Possible, but I doubt that us being a threat plays any role in this, even if it's true.

We don't have analyses for now. If you want to produce one, I'll be extremely happy to read it

I'll try, no promises though. Unless many other aspects of the game, I have never thought about this. Actually I did, for 5 minutes, before I posted the question here, and during those 5 minutes I reached the astonishing conclusion that the Golden Age is best when we are in a very early phase because then the boost given by the GA might get close to doubling our performance. In contrast, when everything is mined and railroaded, we are a Republic and spread out enough to suffer from significant corruption, a GA probably gives only a 10-15% boost. Wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be complete nonesense on a second look, nonetheless this argument should be useful anyway -- in worst case as a basis of desinformation.