Foreign Affairs Strategy

[Kloreep]

I have two objectives in starting this thread: 1) to try to get into the workings of MP diplomacy (something with which I have no experience) and how the PTW Demogame will have quirks of its own, and 2) to set up some basic reactions toward teams, so that if we find a team to be our neighbor, we already know how we'd prefer to act.

MP diplomacy I have little insight into. It's obviously going to be quite different, but that's not very helpful. Anyone who's actually played some Civ3 MP want to comment?

Here are some basic opinions about dealing with other teams. Note that these are all early game reactions (IE, if they're right next to us).

Lux Invicta: Seem to be warmongering advocates, but hard to pin down exactly where they are on the builder-warmonger spectrum. Treat with caution.

Gathering Storm: I don't trust this rush-advocating team farther than I can throw 'em. However, I don't think much else can be said before the game begins; I don't have a good handle on their leanings (and I doubt even they will, till they see the map).

RP Team: A friend in a warmongering world, and one we've promised not to attack till 1000 AD. Live in peace with them, and establish a trade connection ASAP to exchange luxes.

Glory of War: If we start next to them, I say RUSH RUSH RUSH in the ancient age! I don't trust them at all, and they've basically stated they'll be hitting their neighbors up for money. Strike while we have our UU and theirs is yet to come!

Vox Controlli: Don't really know what these guys are about (except for the "one voice" thing ), but a lot of their discussion up till now has been public (they only got their forum recently). Does anyone who bothered to read their threads wish to comment?

Demogyptica: Don't know much about these guys. Another team to treat with caution.

[redstar1]

I agree with most of what you say and would just like to reiterate that we should view all other Civs with extreme caution. The Glory of War team is probably the one team we can identify as a definate threat but I don't advocate attacking them because of who they are. I think we should reserve entering into a war willingly until we are sure of our position and we have clear and consice set of objectives. I don't think theres much point in raiding the GOW empire, or any other one early on just because we have Numidian Mercs. We should use the Mercs, and the other civ's knowledge that we have them as a deterrent.

Of course if, in the interest of expansion and continued survival we are forced to enter into hostilities with another soverign nation .... I say kill

[Sharpe]

The Civs of the other teams: (thought this was as good a place as any)

Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Industrious & Scientific
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Industrious & Religious
Role-Playing - Spain - Commercial & Religious
Glory of War - China - Industrious & Militaristic
Vox Controli - unknown, but Persia in the lead
Demogyptica - Arabs - Expansionist & Religious

Lux Invicta - Hard to say what strategy they will use - those traits can be used by warmongers to maintain a more balanced approach while concentrating on a military buildup though. They will be a real problem in the late middle ages due to their strong unique unit.
However, if they build up early until the late middle ages, they could rival us in building due to their traits.

Gathering Storm - They have a LOT of Civ 3 experienced players and clearly favor early rushing - and Egypt is perfect for that. Should be wary of them, however, they might be willing to ally with us if we meet them after we have our unique units in place.

Role-Playing - Seem friendly; however, if they are truly role-playing they will be militaristic (can't have much of a story with interesting events and characters if all they are doing is building city improvements and using workers )

Glory of War - Clearly aggressive, but by choosing China instead of a great early rusher like the Aztecs or Iroquois, they may be mindful of the need for other tactics if war fails. Do appear to be trying to bribe others, but we might be able to use that to our advantage.

Vox Controli - Will have to be aggressive early if they use Persia due to the usefulness of those Immortals. Treaties might be useless if they do go ahead with a one voice, no advisers dictatorship as style of play might vary greatly (like in succession games) depending on how often they change leaders.

Demogyptica - Another hard to figure out civ - they chose Egypt in their SP Democratic game (but then again so did we), which might indicate early rushing tactics. However, their choice of Arabia this time might indicate a desire to gain an early advantage in exploring the map. Only Gathering Storm will uncover the map nearly as fast as them. Being a non-Apolyton team, they might use that early advantage to be a map and contact broker and to try to form friendships with some of us. However, their religious trait and cheap unique unit will give them some flexibility in their tactics too.

My suggestion is that we might be best to adapt the tactics of England in the 1700 to 1800's by forming coalitions.

While we are working on developing our infrastructure - build a decent military (mostly defensive and speedy counter attack units) we should try to form friendly coalitions. I suspect that if an early rush attack is made that there might be early coalitions formed against it (if the defending civ isn't immediately overwhelmed of course), especially due to our relative inexperience with Civ 3 MP tactics. It is possible that we may end up with a 4 vs 3 civs coalition situation that frequently occured in those "Diplomatic" games from Civ 2.

With our emphasis on building, if we are not disturbed too much, we should be able to gain some advantages in city size, shield and commerce production and might be able to use money and trade goods as subsidies to our coalition partners.

Sorry for the long-winded post. Feel free to ignore or criticize.

[Kloreep]

Don't apologize for your long post, Sharpe. It was good.

I agree with everything that has been said, except comments on GoW. I've seen at least one post from a member of theirs that mentions bribing GoW simply to stay away; in other words, tribute.

If they accept us as an equal neighbor, fine. But I currently doubt they will. And if they want to take the fruits of our labor simply by virtue of their stated philosophy, I say we should show them we can play their game just as easily as ours.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
The Civs of the other teams: (thought this was as good a place as any)

Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Industrious & Scientific
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Industrious & Religious
Role-Playing - Spain - Commercial & Religious
Glory of War - China - Industrious & Militaristic
Vox Controli - unknown, but Persia in the lead
Demogyptica - Arabs - Expansionist & Religious

Nice post, Sharpe.

I will add one more table, showing what techs other teams start with:
Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Bronze Working & Masonry
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Ceremonial Burial & Masonry
Role-Playing - Spain - Alphabet & Ceremonial Burial
Glory of War - China - Warrior Code & Masonry
Vox Controli - Bronze Working & Masonry
Demogyptica - Arabs - Pottery & Ceremonial Burial
we, Legoland - Cartaghe - Alphabet & Masonry

Sorted from least to most common (beaker costs in brackets):

1:
Warrior Code - Glory of War (30)
Pottery - Demogyptica (20)

2:
Alphabet - us, Role-players (50)
Bronze Working - Lux Invicta, Vox Controli (30)

3:
Ceremonial Burial - Gathering Storm, Role-Players, Demogyptica (20)

5:
Masonry - everybody, but Spain & Demogyptica (40)

Alphabet is a very valuable starting tech and will be - hopefully - in high demand, as it is on the road to the Great Library. But we should not hesitate to trade it for other techs, as it does not give any immediate military advantage and we are not the only ones to have it. The sooner we sell it to someone else, the better. OTOH, we can hardly hope for trading Masonry, as almost everybody has it...

Let's see:

1) Archer rush against us is possible/likely only if we start next to GoW only. Nobody else will be able to churn out archers much earlier than we start cranking Mercs. I assume that GoW will be unlikely to trade their Warrior Code early on, as it gives them an obvious edge over other teams.

2) Should we start next to Lux Invicta or Vox Controli, I suggest offering Masonry for the rest of unresearched Bronze Working, should they be willing to trade (maybe even throwing some moderate cash in). Masonry will be next to useless trade-wise very soon, which should be just enough to justify exchanging it for a partially researched tech. The sooner we get to BW, the better. Masonry would be an acceptable price for getting to Mercs few turns sooner.

3) Should we start next to Gathering Storm, I would lean toward offering them Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial plus loads of cash (dunno, how much exactly... at least 20-30 gold?), should they be willing to accept it. This may seem a bit foolish, but consider this: Roleplayers have been granted a preferred trading partner status, which means that we may have to trade Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial anyway... offering a fine deal to GoS may start a friendly relationship with them. If there is nothing they can extort us for, they may be more likely to pick a different target.

4) Role-Players. There is not much to consider here. We would be sort of bound to sell them Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial, hopefully making some cash, too. I would rather not meet them too early... Trading Alphabet for CB will hardly bring any relationship improvement... we would be better off trading it to GS.

5) Glory of War. Umm, this would be tough... Warrior Code is their starting exclusive, which gives them an edge. I would probably try offering Alphabet for Warrior Code. It would be such a lopsided deal (a 50-beaker tech for a 20-beaker tech) that they may even agree... the closer we will be to Bronze Working, the more likely they might be to trade (Archers would suck against Mercs anyway). I would even be willing to promise not to trade Warrior Code for a set period of time (like 10, 15, or 20 turns) to anyone else to make this deal. If they agree on such a deal, I suggest we take it - in case of a rush from another team, we would be able to counter-attack with cheap archers, saving our costly Mercs for rock-solid defense...

GoW is the only team posing a real early-game threat to us. Anything that will keep them at bay will be fine, IMHO.

6) Should we start next to Neu Demogyptica, I would suggest trading both of our techs for both of theirs ASAP. Considering the nominal research cost, we would be giving them a bit more, but Masonry will be very easy to get from other teams, while Pottery is their starting exclusive.

OK, that's just about all I can think of right now (you can consider that my campaign speech for the post of Foreign Minister).

[vondrack]

I find it a bit worrying that nobody feels like commenting my trading strategy post... I must have posted either some real crap nobody cares to discuss, or stated just very obvious things, or... does anybody care at all?

[Odin]

Looks good Vondrack.

[Tiberius]

Yes Radek, don't worry, it is looking good.
Good analysis (and Sharpe's too).

[lmtoops]

Good analysis! I like the way your thinking.

I like the idea of agressively looking for deals. We need to get the best deals for Alphabet before RP beats us to it.

Has it been decided what methods of communication (to other civs) are legal? Can we begin contacting other civs today, or just within the game?

[Colonel Kraken]

Wow, you guys are deep! I almost feel inclined just to sit back and watch and learn.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
Wow, you guys are deep! I almost feel inclined just to sit back and watch and learn.

Learning from other players is one reason I like demogames so much. (I know there's a strategy forum, but it just doesn't hold my attention. I need examples. )

[vondrack]

OK, I know I am kind of threadjacking this thread, but it seems to be a great place to start working on my foreign affairs agenda. As the provisional Foreign Minister of Legoland, I would like my ambassadors to report whether they contacted their partners in other teams and whether anything important has been arranged. I noticed some of them did so, but I have no easy to way to find out who contacted whom.

As there was no general consent regarding the rules for making diplomatic PMs semi-public, allowing for posting their content in the private team forums, I would kindly ask all our ambassadors to speak to their counterparts, possibly arranging for lifting the restriction for both parties.

Also, our ambassador to Gathering Storm (quantum_mechani? correct?) should find out if there are any more email addresses we should send our savegame to. Currently, we send it to notyoueither@hotmail.com only.

[quantum_mechani]

I have made contact with the Gathering Storm ambassador (DeepO) and according to him we are the first ambassadors to meet. I will ask him who else to send the save to.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
I have made contact with the Gathering Storm ambassador (DeepO) and according to him we are the first ambassadors to meet. I will ask him who else to send the save to.

Good! Developing friendly relations with Gathering Storm prior to other teams may help, even if only a bit (after all, they seem to really be the team with most renowned players). I have noticed DeepO too would like to lift the PM restriction. Be so kind and finalize the agreement with him.

Thanks, qm.

[quantum_mechani]

Do you mean stop using PM altogether? Or just make sure its OK to post the their content?