What do we do now?

[Tiberius]

It seems that Fort Stanwix has fallen. Do you still want to fight?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
It seems that Fort Stanwix has fallen. Do you still want to fight?

Sigh. Been thinking of this for the most of today...

The answer for me is no.

It has actually little to do with the fall of Ft. Stanwix - that was to be expected, after we were attacked by GS from behind there.

I am sorry to say that what happened left me with my heart and soul torn to pieces, hurting almost beyond bearability - and I'm not roleplaying here at all. I can keep repeating 'it's just a game' over and over and it won't help. Something we've all spent hundreds and hundreds of hours with, has been wasted in an instant. Come to think of it, I can't recall such a waste ever before in my life. Speaking about my real life here, since this has become part of my real life.

And it started as a 'fun project'...! Activity to enjoy in one's leisure time! Sheesh, what a foolish fool I was (no, Tibi, it was my decision to join, it was my decision to get into the lead, and it was my decision to not leave, so no bad feelings about the invitation you sent me two years ago). For many many months I've been aware of how it could (and probably would) end and still had not wisdom enough to quit. This is what one gets for failing to learn.

I am not so much blaming myself for the oversight that triggered the disaster. It was to be expected that we'd miss something, sooner or later... or that we'd have a streak of bad RNG... and that it would cost us dearly. It's quite sad the oversight came at the worst possible moment, causing our total destruction...

...but that's not what makes it so difficult to bear. It's not that we are not going to win. It's not that we are going to end up erased from the map completely. It's the enormous amount of time wasted. Wasted for no good at all. Yeah, I learnt an awful lot about Civ3. I've actually learnt so much that I can't enjoy the game any more and will probably never play it again. Talk about useful learning experience. About as useful as finding out how rolls are being baked... you don't want to eat them afterwards, knowing what's (or can be) actually inside.

Yeah, I have met great people here. Unfortunately, some of them are feeling as bad or almost as bad as I am, being in the very same boat, while the rest keeps patting me on my shoulder, saying how great Lego was doing until the fatal mistake, while happily destroying every single bit of what those hundreds of hours were spent on. I know they are doing what they have to... which, however, does not make me feel their 'friendship' any stronger ATM.

I know MZ did not mean harm... but his 'live coverage' of the fall of Ft. Stanwix made me feel literally sick and drove me very close to tears.

For myself, I can see two options now.

Option 1: I finally learn my lesson and quit this game immediately, saving whatever little time can still be saved. It's the enormous amount of time put into the game that has sucked fun out of it, that brought so much stress into it (for me), raised the stakes so high, and made the eventual fall so freaking difficult to bear, so let's at least try pretending the lesson might have been learnt.

Option 2: I refuse to learn my lesson and stick with the game, coming up with wild ideas, allying with those that have brought destruction upon Legoland against those that have brought destruction upon Legoland. I waste even more time, achieving nothing at all, just seeing someone else celebrating their 'hard earned' victory. Or... or we somehow magically pull a rabbit out of the hat, winning or helping Vox to win, making many people in GS and GoW feel cruelly robbed in the same or similar way I am feeling now. I would hate myself in both cases.

I guess, for me, it's just about time to finally stop acting foolish and stubborn and do something at least remotely wise.

I am giving up. If there is another turnplayer stepping up, wishing to continue along some kind of a plan, cool. If not, I will play the remaining turn or two, basically just dismantling Legoland in a partially controlled way.

I just want to rest in peace and hopefully forget.

[ZargonX]

V, I understand your decision completely. You, far more than any of us, have poured your heart into this. I mean, when I read the GS battle report the other day, the first thing I said to my girlfriend was "well, there goes two years for nothing." It is incredibly sad, and it's a reason I think a lot of people are no longer playing these games. Seeing things you work so hard for be destroyed in a turn or two just isn't worth the effort. Who knows, maybe Civ4 will have a better system, one that won't lead to games being decided by one mistake. We can only hope.

In the meantime, though, I will take over as turnplayer, if you wish. If we're going to go down, I'm going to have some fun with it first

[vondrack]

OK, then, unless others mind, it's up to you now.

Good luck and have fun!

[ZargonX]

Heh, I don't know that I have that many options available, but I'll see what I can stir up

[lmtoops]

I was gone all weekend, and am just discovering our demise....and it sucks.

I've had it. This is the second time in PBEM that I have been a victim of extreme combat settlers. It is so completely unfair.

Legoland: OK, we made a mistake. So, what is the penalty?

Civ3 Judge: Nothing but complete destruction of all your core cities!!

Legoland: WTF!!!!

I've had it. The punishment does not fit the crime. In PBEM, the end game will always involve extreme cobat settlers and a builder cannot win at that game.

Guys, do what you want with sticking it to GS, or giving Vox the win...I don't really care. I've had it...I'm out...Later

[Kloreep]

I'm sorry to see you guys go, but I can see why. Hopefully we'll see you guys down the road in the Civ4 forums.

Originally posted by ZargonX
In the meantime, though, I will take over as turnplayer, if you wish. If we're going to go down, I'm going to have some fun with it first

I'll help out. Let's create some havoc.

Once GoW's complete battle report is up, we'll need to figure out what to give to Vox. Though we also have to remember it may be taken before it reaches them... turn order is all wrong.

[Jack_www]

I for one want to make GS and GOW pay for what they have done. At first I was sad to see all that work go down the tubes in one turn. After all I was the one who decided to start the team. I kind know how you feel vondrack. I never thought it would end like this. But now I want to make them pay for what they did to us. I know it just a game, but they way they act I want them to pay. I dont know how that will happen now, but I really want them to pay.

I do want to say that in Conquest, one subs can attack any ship they want that is in a stack. Thus you dont have to attack the defending ships, you can attack the transports directly. Also I dont think you should be able to build a city in anyone territory. That is just plain stupid and I thought they this was not possible untill this war started. That was one of the major problems in Civ2 and I dont know why it is still allowed to exist.

Anyways, I am in this till we have been wiped off the map. I am not going to let GS and GOW make this all a waste, at least I want to go down fighting.

It is not over untill the fat laddy sings.

[Jack_www]

I see our new goals should be these:

One find some way to survive at least with a couple of cities.

Two since we cannot win now, try everything we can to ensure that anyone but GS or GOW wins.

Who here is with me?

[Tiberius]

Radek,

I am really sorry to hear your words. It is not the fact that you are leaving, not the fact that you feel bad about losing (we all do), but what really hurts is to see someone complaining about the only thing that really matters in this case: the personal time invested in this game.

From all of us you invested the most of time and effort into this game and I know it doesn't help but I still thank you This is why I joined the Demogame in the first place: to have fun and to see how the "big guys" play civ I had my fun and I saw the big guys playing. I am not sure I like everything about it (I would never micromanage at that level, it is simply no fun in it for me) but at least for some months I breathed "high Civ air"

This doesn't help either, but think about it: even if we would have won, it is still the same amount of time and effort invested. Actually even more, because who knows how much longer this game will last. So, in a way, it is good that it is over. Though, winning after 2 years of effort would have felt better

One more thing about the "lost" time (I don't really know how to say this): it is your style to "waste" time. You are so dedicated to everything you do, that inevitably you are "losing" time. Now, admitedly you could have invested your time and effort in something else, more profitable or enjoyable for you. You can't really change this, unfortunately However, it is good to keep in mind this dedication of yours whenever you join in the future anything "only for fun"

PS * sigh* I din't write so much nonsense in a single post for a long time. I just want to make you feel better and I know it is not possible

Finally, thank you all for a great game !

[rendelnep]

Tibi is right. Radek, your commitment to the game was incrediable and it is sad to see things go this way. I also hope such issues are resolved in future games. Anyway, Hail to the Chief!!!!

Secondly I agree and think we should go with a bang. I don't know if we can continue fighting and if thats the case we either sue for peace with the best lawyers around or hand it all to Vox. If we can continue then I suggest we harry them and try and retake Legopolis and follow operation Geneve. We can't win so we have nothng to lose now.
Viva a La Legoterre!!!!!

[vondrack]

Tibi,

I have had my bright moments with this game, that's for sure. Not few of them. But there really should be some sort of a balance between the bright moments and tedious chores. If not, then the whole thing shifts from fun to, well, waste of time.

How to explain it... it's how unbelievably sudden, utter, and unnecessary our demise has been that keeps reminding me painfully of how absurd the whole thing has been. Anything that can even theoretically end like this is something one should stay away from - or at least invest appropriately into, time-wise. I failed to comprehend that until the very end. I invested way too much despite being aware of what could happen (DoN ended just like this many months ago). I thought that the fun part was not possible or seriously threatened had I not given the game all I was able to, since a small mistake had the potential to kill us. That's why I spent so much time with it - to not let the same happen again. The folly of mine was I believed it could have been done. The sad truth is the problem is not with giving or not giving the game all one is able to. The problem is with the game itself, with its flawed design/rules - or, maybe, with the fact that we're trying to use something meant for casual "having fun" (which works) to "play professionally" (which it is utterly unsuitable for).

You are right that I always do things 200%. That's me. Just that normally, I am careful about doing things that are risky. I do not mind working hard on something that gives results. OTOH, working hard for nothing...

I was definitely no "big guy" when I joined. I was a n00b, no less. I might have grown into a big guy or close to it... our defense really was great up until the mistake. I have learnt how to micromanage, I've learnt pretty much every trick about Civ3. The problem is that usually, when you learn all the tricks, it helps you do/enjoy the thing better. Not in this case. That's why it feels so much like a waste of time for me now.

You are right that not all that time was truly wasted. We've had some fun and we've become a great bunch of Legos. Thanks to all of you!

And who knows, I may use the stuff learnt here... either to help steer CIV design/mechanics away from Civ3... or to design a completely different game once... once... as soon as... as I have everything else done...

This doesn't help either, but think about it: even if we would have won, it is still the same amount of time and effort invested. Actually even more, because who knows how much longer this game will last. So, in a way, it is good that it is over. Though, winning after 2 years of effort would have felt better

You scare me.

But you are very much right... it's quite likely that winning would feel only a little bit better. It's quite possible I would feel a very similar emptiness after winning or losing this game in a less cruel way.

So, in a way, it is good that it is over.

However, it is good to keep in mind this dedication of yours whenever you join in the future anything "only for fun"

Oh, absolutely! I hope that will be the lesson learnt.

PS * sigh* I din't write so much nonsense in a single post for a long time. I just want to make you feel better and I know it is not possible

Nonsense would be something making no sense.

I understand you quite well, you know that. You've always been one of the closest to me.

Finally, thank you all for a great game !

Ditto!

I am still going to stick around, since the "great Lego bunch" part was not destroyed by GS/GoW, but I am just not going to follow the game closely now.

I may or may not be around for the public AAR - sadly, most of it will probably be could'a/should'a/would'a... it's a bit difficult to present one's views with some weight, having your empire dismantled in a single turn... I am not sure I would enjoy discussing what was the reason we lost the game/war for, since... since I believe we lost it because of missing one single tiny bit... because of moving three ships one tile farther than needed... what can one really say about that?

[ZargonX]

Actually even more, because who knows how much longer this game will last.

I have a feeling it is entering the "end game." Our fall will leave a big void in the world, and everyone is going to rush to fill it. I think if GS or GoW think they have the advantage over the other, they are going to push into them. Or maybe this is ND's time to act... Or maybe Vox will win via UN after all

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
How to explain it... it's how unbelievably sudden, utter, and unnecessary our demise has been that keeps reminding me painfully of how absurd the whole thing has been.
...

I suppose you summed up pretty well. Yep.

And who knows, I may use the stuff learnt here... either to help steer CIV design/mechanics away from Civ3... or to design a completely different game once... once... as soon as... as I have everything else done...

Let me know when you need a beta tester

So, in a way, it is good that it is over.

In a way, yes, especially for you. I will kinda miss it though, 'cause my online activity is close to 0 without this demo game

... I am not sure I would enjoy discussing what was the reason we lost the game/war for, since... since I believe we lost it because of missing one single tiny bit... because of moving three ships one tile farther than needed... what can one really say about that?

You have at least something to tell to Soren next time when he comes to Prague. Something like this should not happen in civ4.

[Tiberius]

Wow, my previous post had longer quotes than answers! This probably means that I don't really have anything else to say about this