Holy GS landing batman!

[vondrack]

Hmmm... while putting together the turn plan, I have realized that the idea has a weak point. We need three turns (with RoPs beginning on the next turn, T149) to get all 9 knights there.

Say, we send the 'stern warning' this turn and move LEF1 to S of Skulgaria, LEF2 to S-S of Ningpo, and LEF 3 to S-S of Macao (T148 - no RoP). GS move N, we accept the city and move/fortify LEF1 there; LEF2+3 moves to S of Skulgaria (T149 - RoP with both GoW & ND). GS sends the lux deal expiry note, we move LEF2+3 to Yellowknife and fortify there... (T150). On the next turn, GS attacks (T151).

This would be the ideal scenario. But if GS, uhm, 'forgets' to send the lux expiry note and simply attacks on T150, we lose three knights and the city...

And I am not even talking about the possibility of GS moving their knights NW-NW immediately...

[vondrack]

Oh, and... Leo is right, of course. It's not a trick, but a tactic. A very valid one. Used by the most honourable players worldwide.

[Kloreep]

I'm skeptical they would stop for a city gifting; as such, the only point would be to let us defend the city (which won't work if they rush ahead with Knights; we have to be sure of beating them to Yellowknife), and I don't like 4 vs. 4 when they have 12 and we have 9.

Perhaps GoW could rush a cheap militaristic wall for us before gifting it? That would make the odds much better. Otherwise, we'd simply be gaining +35% for fortification and for open ground, making our defense 4 vs their attack of 4. Even odds individually, but they have numerical superiority.

Also, I want to know what GoW and ND can send to the region. (Not just what they have there, but what they can send in time. A few more troops won't make much difference in Pamplona by the sound of it, but this is a smaller battle that could be turned by a few extra Riders and/or Ansars.) With a stack this big, a joint attack over the span of one turn (GoW attacking to weaken, then us finishing things off) would likely work best.

I'd really like to avoid fighting GS, but there's no way we can turn down GoW if they request help. We'll just have to do what we can to patch up relations after this war.

[vondrack]

Yeah, walls would be a must, that's for sure. With them, we should be able to hold the city (odds would be 2:1 in our favour).

As for patching relations... I would not worry that much. Trading partners will be rare for GS after this war ends (with RP perhaps gone, GoW/ND sworn enemies, and Vox less than loving the team that drove them off their homelands). GS will be happy to side/trade with us, if for nothing else, then out of necessity.

[Tiberius]

It's not a trick, it's tactic. It would be a trick if we teleported units gifting cities back and forth.

I say we should use it only if all our units could arrive in time before the attack, and GoW can rush a wall.

Let's see first what GoW has to say about this and coordinate with them.

Regardless, we must send the message before the action.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Let's see first what GoW has to say about this and coordinate with them.

I have PMed Aggie yesterday, asking for a 'coordination' chat. Should talk to him later today, BEFORE GoW sends the save on.

[vondrack]

Just very briefly (I am leaving in a couple of minutes): talked to Aggie yesterday. GoW has ~15 riders plus some pikes capable of making stand against the GS stack. Put briefly: it's GoW's business for this moment - we are to keep moving our units into position, being basically their reserves.

Y'knife will be made pop 7 by adding workers (currently works on FP), no possibility of having walls there. Also, this quite likely renders our idea with city gifting impossible - GoW would lose their FP build there...

Will post the full chatlog later today.

[vondrack]

Here is the full chatlog:

Session Start: Tue Nov 04 18:08:34 2003
Session Ident: #gow
* Now talking in #gow
vondrack: hi, Aggie!
vondrack: I have very little time now
Aggiemowa: well it finally happened, gs cam enorth
vondrack: so, very briefly:
Aggiemowa: ok
vondrack: this is what triggers our military involvement
Aggiemowa: yes
vondrack: we are ready to fight
vondrack: any plans?
vondrack: ...though, we would still need few more turns to position our units
vondrack: but, well, nothing is perfect
vondrack: how is your situation in the area?
Aggiemowa: well here 's what I am doing now, I have 15 riders in the north that I am sending to yellowknife. i'd suggest you concentrate your forces then proceed towar the combat zone. I'll offer a ROP
vondrack: k
vondrack: that's very good news
vondrack: I was afraid of having to attack with scattered forces
Aggiemowa: nd will offer sp this turn and we'll upgrade the pike in the area to musk too
vondrack: cool
vondrack: btw - do you have walls in Y'knife?
Aggiemowa: nope but we will join 3 wroekrs to it, to make it size 7
Aggiemowa: it is working on fp right now
vondrack: ah, I see, ok
Aggiemowa: i am not sure where the ultimate target is actuall but from yellowknife we can go either way
vondrack: then, I guess, there is little to discuss at this very moment
vondrack: if you can hold on your own for a turn or two
vondrack: then we are fine
Aggiemowa: we can
vondrack: we need 2-3 turns to have our nine knights together
vondrack: less than I would wish, but at least
vondrack: they are "expendable"
vondrack: we can attack without fearing to lose them
Aggiemowa: i was going to have you take a worker to cut iron, but many wanted more pike and less horse to upgrade. So we'll keep the iron for now
* Nimitz has joined #gow
Aggiemowa: maybe your elite will give you a GL
vondrack: ok, iron stays with you
Aggiemowa: hi minitz
vondrack: ummm... not sure what we'd do with a GL
Aggiemowa: i mean nimitz
Aggiemowa: well we were having that debate, but we've been unlucky there
Nimitz: hi
vondrack: Aggi, one question
Aggiemowa: yes
vondrack: shall we send a "stern warning" to GS?
vondrack: or keep our stance 'secret'
Aggiemowa: that might be good
vondrack: ok, we will send it
vondrack: we were debating that in our forum
vondrack: we will not disclose our mil. presence on Bob, though
Aggiemowa: the warning might be good, but it is fully up to you
vondrack: just usual diplo mumbo jumbo
vondrack: yap
vondrack: ok
Nimitz: yup
vondrack: any tiles that are crucial for the movement of your troops?
Aggiemowa: gs probably suspect but has no idea about the troops i think.
vondrack: I would suggest you tell us the exact route our knights should follow
vondrack: to prevent traffic jams
Aggiemowa: not real our troops are moving on the road from "the hill" to Yellowknife
Aggiemowa: the only real trafic problem could be our elite pike that I am deverting through nd territory to you
Aggiemowa: i mean to yellowknife
vondrack: ok, just drop me a PM if you think there might be a problem
vondrack: our units should proceed 'expectably'
Aggiemowa: i had the game open and was playing but my comp was moving too slow so i had to close it
Nimitz: so what is our plan
vondrack: for the moment
vondrack: it's GoW business
vondrack: we move our units into the position
vondrack: within the striking distance from the front
Aggiemowa: we are moving riders toyellowknife(along with pike)
vondrack: right?
Aggiemowa: yes
vondrack: great
vondrack: LEF4 leaves this turn
Aggiemowa: we actually outnumber that force
vondrack: LEF5 a turn later
Aggiemowa: of gs
vondrack: that's very good news
Aggiemowa: perfect
vondrack: gotta run now
Nimitz: so we hold up as back up
vondrack: sorry
Aggiemowa: thats ok
vondrack: I will check after I come back home (in about 2 hours)
Aggiemowa: yes nimitz, you all concentrate then will head toward all the fun
vondrack: if you are still here, we can talk more
Aggiemowa: ok
vondrack: or Thursday evening, as usually
vondrack: take care
Aggiemowa: yes
vondrack: and good luck
vondrack: bye
Aggiemowa: you too
Aggiemowa: bye
vondrack: bye, Nimitz
Nimitz: cya vondrack
Session Close: Tue Nov 04 18:26:24 2003

[vondrack]

Just to make sure nobody misses it - there is a draft of our "stern warning" in the GS diplo thread.

[redstar1]

Sounds good. I'm a bit happier with the idea of not attacking GS first. I'd like us to take a 'backup' role. I think thats the way we are heading anyway. I'm still hopeful that it may not come to us being involved but we shall have to see what happens.

[Kloreep]

Backup is good. Makes sense considering the turn order too, since GoW goes before us.

I too hope we don't have to get involved, but we may have to finish off the GS stack depending on how the RNG goes for GoW. At least that might be disguisable; if it's all FoW to them, all they'll know is we declared war.