Gathering Storm Trade Discussion

[Hot_Enamel]

My concern with the map trade, is that they are now looking outwards for conquests of new territory.

It can be the only reason.

Their military is huge, and can defend their own territory easily enough. So protection of their geography is no longer needed.
But what to do with all that extra military ?
Looking for nice invasion spots ?

---------

Ask them what Lego asked us when they were checking if we would attack ND.

If there was war, and GoW was asked to be involved, is there any team that GS would see unfavorable if GoW attacked it ?

------------

I would be willing to gift them wines for 20 rounds for a no-trade clause on Chiv & a guarantee that they will not land units on Bob...(Our concern being that they want our map, and are now looking for new land to settle)

[Panzer32]

I would be willing to gift them wines for 20 rounds for a no-trade clause on Chiv & a guarantee that they will not land units on Bob...(Our concern being that they want our map, and are now looking for new land to settle)

I would support this.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Guys, calm down. I can't work faster than GS...

WHEN EXACTLY DO WE HAVE CHIV?

Ok.

Let me try to catch someone in a chat...

[Hot_Enamel]

By my reckoning, 1 or 2 turns

I strongly suggest that we stop research.

We need the gold anyway, and we are not locked into any deals that define when it is due. Only that we trade when it comes available.

We finish research 2 turns before the war.
Upgrade and then attack.
(check with ND though... they may have prepbuilds for Ansars and expect Chiv)

[Panzer32]

Hot_Enamel, that would be impossible because we need approximatly 5 turns to get to Roleplay. We have agreed to attack in 110bc. We cannot stop research. This was all agreed upon in the ND chats. See chat logs for details.

[Panzer32]

uh, I had a chat with Shiber, and found a few things out. Unortho, please read.

[17:36] *Panzer32* hi Shiber
[17:36] *Shiber* hi Panzer32
[17:36] *Shiber* how's it hangin'?
[17:36] *Panzer32* good
[17:37] *Shiber* redstar1 moved houses recently
[17:37] *Shiber* Isn't that nice? A new place to live in?
[17:38] *Panzer32* I just wanted to confirm that GS was considering
Unortho's proposal for a no trade clause for chivalry.
[17:38] *Panzer32* new place =
[17:38] *Shiber* We are considering, yes
[17:38] *Shiber* You know how we like to work out of a concensus
[17:38] *Panzer32* yes
[17:38] *Shiber* But you see, the whole notion of an indefinite
NDA is quite a precedent
[17:39] *Shiber* Sorry, I must stop for a second to emphasize
that this is only my personal opinion
[17:39] *Shiber* I am not speaking in behalf of my team right
now
[17:39] *Panzer32* I don't think I've read the PM... he suggested
it indefinatly?
[17:39] *Shiber* I believe he has
[17:39] *Shiber* Let me check
[17:40] *Shiber* In the meantime, hey, let's Email Markos and
ask him if he can make Poly just a bit slower
[17:40] *Panzer32*
[17:40] *Shiber*
[17:42] *Panzer32* also... was it an NDA or a NTA (disclosure
or trade)
[17:43] *Shiber* non disclosure = we can't disclose the details
of the agreement to third parties?
[17:44] *Panzer32* but any NDA would include by its very nature
an NTA? (confirm?)
[17:45] *Shiber* Wait wait wait
[17:45] *Shiber* Now you got me confused
[17:45] *Shiber* First of all, could you check your own team's
forum and tell me exactly the details of UnO's proposal, because
I'm not sure anymore
[17:46] *Panzer32* I can't. I don't think he posted it
[17:46] *Panzer32* I'll look for it though
[17:46] *Shiber* OK, thanks
[17:47] *Shiber* brb
[17:47] *Panzer32* But in our forums we have discussed it as
a NTA
[17:47] *Panzer32* k
[17:54] *Shiber* I'm back
[17:54] *Shiber* Sorry for the delay
[17:54] *Panzer32* thats ok
[17:54] *Shiber* Please explain to me exactly what an NTA means,
so that we know that we are speaking of the same thing
[17:56] *Panzer32* NTA = no trade agreement. You cannot trade
or gift chivalry for the time specified. No other restrictions
are included.
[17:56] *Shiber* And NDA = Non-Disclosure Agreement, meaning
that we cannot reveal the details of the transaction to any third
party?
[17:57] *Shiber* Can you go and check how long UnO wanted the
NTA to last?
[17:57] *Panzer32* sorry, he hasn't posted it
[17:57] *Shiber* Could you please ask someone?
[17:58] *Panzer32* can you not access it on your forum?
[17:58] *Shiber* I've been trying to get in for several minutes
now
[17:58] *Panzer32* basically, we probably won'
[17:59] *Shiber* YOU WON?!?!
[17:59] *Panzer32* t need the NTA to last for more than 20 turns
[17:59] *Shiber* WHY HASN'T ANYONE TOLD ME SO?!?!
[17:59] *Shiber*
[17:59] *Panzer32* stupid enter key
[17:59] *Shiber*
[17:59] *Panzer32* basically, we probably won't need the NTA
to last for more than 20 turns
[17:59] *Shiber* Yes, yes. Blame your keyboard.
[18:00] *Shiber* You know, that's an awfully long period of time
[18:00] *Shiber* We can probably research it ourselves in half
that time
[18:00] *Panzer32* but then you wouldn't be researching something
else
[18:01] *Shiber* UnO's latest message says nothing about Chivalry
[18:01] *Panzer32* does it talk about a no trade clause?
[18:02] *Shiber* no
[18:02] *Panzer32* dope
[18:02] *Panzer32* when was it posted?
[18:02] *Shiber* It is only my personal impression, but I think
that my team would settle for a 20 turns NTA if it contained
a clause stating that the NTA is void should GoW engage in warfare
[18:02] *Shiber* Several days ago, let me get you the exact time
& date
[18:03] *Panzer32* Unortho sent one yesterday I believe... maybe
Zeit hasn't posted it/received it yet
[18:04] *Shiber* We have one from the 18th
[18:07] *Shiber* Did I leave you speechless?
[18:08] * Now talking in #gow
[18:08] * Topic is 'The Glory Of Chat'
[18:08] * Set by MasterZen on Fri May 30 23:56:10
[18:08] *Shiber* hi
[18:09] *Panzer32* hi there
[18:09] *Shiber* yes, UnO offered Chivalry with an infinite NTA
[18:09] *Panzer32* I don't really know what to say
[18:09] *Shiber* That's a bit too much to ask
[18:10] *Panzer32* did he mention anything as payment for the
NTA?
[18:10] *Shiber* Perhaps we can accept an infinite NTA if the
agreement contains a clause stating that it is void should GoW
engage in warfare with a team that does not have Chivalry
[18:10] *Shiber* Or else we lose potential clients
[18:11] *Panzer32* I don't think our team would accept that
[18:11] *Panzer32* what about a 20 turn NTA?
[18:11] *Shiber* UnO's proposal was for future iron + incense
for 20 turns for Chivalry with an infinite NTA
[18:12] *Shiber* 20 turns is too long. Remember that we asked
for half of that with Feudalism, and we were the only ones with
the tech at the time too
[18:12] *Shiber* What's your ETA on Chivalry?
[18:12] *Panzer32* We already have a deal for chivalry - 200
gold for it.
[18:12] *Panzer32* the trade for a NTA is totally seperate
[18:12] *Shiber* I thought you're researching it
[18:13] *Panzer32* yes
[18:13] *Panzer32* you pay 200 gold
[18:13] *Panzer32* (cross post)
[18:13] *Shiber* We have signed on this?
[18:13] *Panzer32* I believe so
[18:14] *Panzer32* it has been around for at least 10 or 15 turns
[18:14] *Shiber* I don't recall that
[18:14] *Shiber* Anyway, UnO has made us a different proposal
[18:14] *Shiber* Oh, sorry, I have to go for a sec
[18:14] *Panzer32* he wasn'
[18:14] *Panzer32* t supposed to do that
[18:14] *Panzer32* k
[18:16] *Shiber* Back
[18:16] *Shiber* Sorry, RL
[18:16] *Shiber* So if our previous deal still stands, what's
the NTA attached to it?
[18:17] *Panzer32* There was no NTA attached to it. We want
to trade for one now.
[18:18] *Shiber* Btw, I take it that the WM for WM deal is fine
with you?
[18:18] *Panzer32* yes
[18:18] *Shiber* And furs for incense?
[18:18] *Panzer32* one sec
[18:22] * Panzer_32 has joined #gow
[18:22] * Panzer32 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset
by peer)
[18:22] *Panzer_32* sorry... computer crashed
[18:23] *Panzer_32* what was the lux trade?
[18:23] *Shiber* eek
[18:24] *Shiber* yeouch
[18:24] *Shiber* sorry to hear
[18:24] * Panzer_32 is now known as Panzer32
[18:24] *Shiber* furs for incense
[18:24] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Panzer32
[18:24] *Panzer32* you give furs?
[18:25] *Panzer32* uhh... I'm sorry to say we don't have any
incense.
[18:25] *Panzer32* we do have wines though
[18:26] * Panzer32 sets mode: +s
[18:29] *Panzer32* you there?
[18:32] *Shiber* Sorry, I was away for a sec
[18:32] *Shiber* Yes, it's furs for wines, my bad
[18:32] *Panzer32* ok
[18:32] *Shiber* UnO has shown interest in getting a supply of
iron and incense in the future
[18:32] *Shiber* He proposed Chivalry for free (but with an infinite
NTA) in exchange for iron and incense
[18:33] *Panzer32* no... we can't give chivalry for free
[18:33] *Shiber* I'm only repeating UnO's suggestion
[18:34] *Shiber* uhh... look, this is kind of unpleasant
[18:34] *Shiber* Please get back to GS, formally, when you have
a clear and backed-up opinion
[18:34] *Panzer32* The Iron is a backup. We will only need it
if ND cuts our source ie attacks us. we would pay when we need
it.
[18:34] *Shiber* Otherwise, we just can't talk business this
way
[18:34] *Shiber* ND will not attack you before they have Chivalry
[18:35] *Shiber* I take it that you'd like to withhold that tech
from ND
[18:35] *Shiber* (personal opinion)
[18:35] *Shiber* My take on the situation is that you want to
team up with RP and eat up ND
[18:35] *Panzer32* it might delay our trading of chivalry if
we do wait to get a clear opinion
[18:35] *Shiber* Panzer32, what's your ETA on Chivalry?
[18:35] *Panzer32* 3 turns
[18:35] *Shiber* We are in no urgent need for that tech
[18:36] *Shiber* 3 turns is plenty of time, given the rate at
which this game is going
[18:37] *Panzer32* ok, you don't need to dicsuss Unortho's proposal
since it is impossible for the team
[18:37] *Panzer32* hopefully we'll have a good proposal tonight
or tommorrow
[18:39] *Shiber* OK
[18:39] *Shiber* May I post this log to my team's forum?
[18:39] *Panzer32* sure
[18:39] *Panzer32* and same for me?
[18:40] *Panzer32* actually could you send it to me since I don't
have the first half?
[18:41] *Shiber* Will do
[18:41] *Panzer32* thanks
[18:41] *Shiber* Make sure to mention that it is unofficial,
I've no official ambassadorship to GoW
[18:42] *Panzer32* yep

[Hot_Enamel]

Shiber seems a little uninformed.

My guess is that he does not know what Uno offered.


We should offer this.
Wines & no GoW unit landing on Little Bob for 20 turns
No Trade Clause for 20 turns & no GS unit landing on Bob for 20 turns

We wont accept a void clause, because we are mercs, and we dont know who we will be paid to attack next.
We compromise our employers position by giving an ememy Chivalry.
2ndly, we want a No Trade because we are still negotiating deals with other teams..nothing to do with war.
They want wine...this is the only way we will do it.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Zeit,

Apologies, again. Seems we are both short of time today.

We were wondering if it would be possible to add a no-trade clause to our deal for Chivalry? We are of course attempting a world wide release, but just in case all deals are not finalized, we are asking this of all teams.

UnOrthOdOx
Vice CALF and Ambassador to Gathering Storm

I admit to not having added a specific # of turns since I didn't know we wanted only X numver of turns, but where shiber is comming up with Chiv for free, etc. is beyond me.

Here is the original proposals I sent.

Honorable zeit,

I am pleased to be able to get around to some pleasnt business for once. Things have been a bit stressfull in GoW lately as you have probably noticed.

My team has decided to offer up the following trades.

First of all the Map trade.

We feel that a straight up map for map trade would be best here. We have done our best to keep ours up to date with the other teams TM's and we have also aggressively mapped out as much as possible with galleys. We also understand that your WM is worth so much to you and we are willing to trade WM for WM, thus bringing you what we feel is the most complete of WM's in the game.

Second, the luxuries and Iron.

As of this time we are unable to afford purchasing any luxuries. So, for the moment we can only offer Wine in exchange for either Fur or insense. Doesn't matter which in-game, but for my story I personally would prefer furs since I have no idea what to say about insense. It's only real use I can see is for religious purposes, and my character is not a very religious man.

Once the impending upgrades are completed, we will reconsider paying for the second Lux.

We currently have a source of Iron and will explore our options when that deal has expired, so would like to know in rough terms what would be needed to acquire Iron from you.

Third.

We discussed in the chat the likelyhood of making them at least a semi-regular occurance. Am I correct in assuming that the best time for GS will be the 0300 GMT time? This seemed to work well for my schedule, personally, so we could always have a representative there for that timing.

NYE also mentioned that the best days would fall Monday - Wednsday. I did not know if that was for him personally or for the team, though. Is this indeed the case? If so, perhaps we can cement these deals with a chat the early part of next week?

UnOrthOdOx
Vice CALF and Ambassador to Gathering Storm

[UnOrthOdOx]

Honorable zeit,

I am sorry to be speaking to you in such a rush, but my time is short.

Panzer apparantly had a chat with Shiber this afternoon and there was some confusion expressed reguarding the upcomming deals. Shiber aparantly had the impression that we were offering Chivalry for free in exchange for incense and Iron along with a no-trade clause.

Just to be sure we are all together, the offers as stands are:

1. Chivalry: GS agrees to pay 200 Gold. GoW is asking what it would take to add a 10 turn No Trade Clause to this.
   
2. Wines For Furs: Straight up trade(already agreed to?)
   
3. Map for Map: Straight up trade (already agreed to?)
   
4. Incense and Iron: GoW will evaluate each as the need arises.
   
5. Non Agression Pact: GoW is asking what it would take to sign one for 20, 30, 40, and 50 turns. Also asking for a clarification of GS stance of breaking deals, ie is breaking a lux trade against your code of honor?

Hope this clears whatever confusion has arised, and hope to hear from you soon on these points.

UnOrthOdOx
Ambassador to GS

Just sent.

[Panzer32]

Uhh... a 20 turn no trade clause would be best. We have a 15 turn no trade clause with Legoland, and aren't going to trade them until they get education (about 6 turns or so)

If we can't get a 20 turn NTA then we'll have to settle for a 10 turn. Its better than nothing.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I guess the chat was based on a missunderstanding.

I chatted with shiber for a bit, see the other thread for details.

I still have no idea where THAT much confusion could have taken place.????

[UnOrthOdOx]

Dear UnOrthOdOx,

I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding among our ranks, which was partially due to my fault. I believe Shiber has already sent an apology for Panzer. As for the details of the trade- the GS agrees to these terms. However, let me remind you that "when the need arises" as you have stated, the price of Iron and a second Luxury could be more than 200 gold that we will be paying now for the tech.

The GS is willing to send you a supply of these two commodities, the Luxuries can be sent right away, and the Iron when your current contract ends, for any given reason.

Like I said, the choice is yours- we can pay those 200 gold when the tech is due, or we can agree to the arrangement I proposed.

As for breaking any deals, of which Luxury trades are no different- this is strictly against our code of conduct. Of course, in case of war, the agressor will be considered as the treaty violator, but unfortunately (or not... ) as we all know, moral justice in times of war is a disputed and vague matter at best. I can assure you, though, that the GS has no intention of breaking our trading agreements.

About NAP- for the time being, our team has decided against it as a general policy. I'll be most glad to elaborate on our considerations and reasoning in my next message.

Waiting to hear from you soon.

Zeit, Ambassador to the Glory of War.

UnOrthOdOx,

Just to be sure I havn't missed anything: Map for Map is okay with the team, as well as Wine for Furs (I think that in 1 or 2 turns we'll have a harbor, so don't be suprised if we don't offer it the next turn). As Chivalry- this is covered in the previous message.

Sorry to be so tight, but one has to learn from his mistakes


Until next time,
Zeit.

So, the map and wine deals are agreed to it seems. Is anyone even remotely interested in the proposed trade for Chivalry?

[UnOrthOdOx]

My proposed response. Quite a bit harsh, I'll be the first to admit. Might even hurt their sense of pride a bit.

zeit,

Reguarding the offer for Chivalry. At present we are not in the need for another luxury, so that would have little value at the present time. The Iron when and if needed does indeed have value to us, however, based on recent discussions we have not received an answer to our satisfaction that such a deal would also guarantee that you would remain neutral in the event of hostilities, therefore it is not a secure deal and would be completely worthless without the full duration of said deal. In such an environment it is in our better interest to use what gold we can get NOW than to make deals for a hypothetical future. Deals that are not even absolutely guaranteed for their duration.

[Hot_Enamel]

Point out to them that from the Shiber chats, we have the feeling that if war broke out, GS would almost certainly get involved.

They say they have no interest in Bob... but then continue to state that they wont do a no-resell clause because they fear we may attack someone who needs it.

I quote from the Panzer/Shiber chat

[18:02] *Shiber* It is only my personal impression, but I think that my team would settle for a 20 turns NTA if it contained a clause stating that the NTA is void should GoW engage in warfare.
[18:10] *Shiber* Or else we lose potential clients

From the Unortho/Shiber chat

*Shiber> If we sign a NAP with just one Bobian, we will polarize the two remaining civs against that Bobian civ and against ourselves
*Shiber> If we sign NAPs with two Bobians, we do the same
*Shiber> If we sign NAPs with all three, we limit ourselves greatly

*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, a total war on Bob presents GS with four opportunities
*Shiber> 1. Attack GoW behind their backs.
*Shiber> 2. Attack ND behind their backs.
*Shiber> 3. Attack RP behind their backs.
*Shiber> 4. Continue normal trade with all three civs.
*Shiber> I for one prefer 4, but I cannot promise that I will not support other options, should very lucrative opportunities present themselves

*Shiber> Obviously claiming a wine by force, and keeping control over that resource, would be much more painful and costly than just trading furs for it
*UnOrthOdOx> Would it? Depends on who invited you to Bob and on what agreement, I would suppose.
*Shiber> Yes. If we were offered, say, 10,000 gold, I doubt whether we could refuse or not
*Shiber> But for more modest offers, we'd rather keep the peace

Unorthodox...
We know from Beta, that they have been trying to get Vox to attack us rather than them from the start of the game.

I think your response can be as harsh as we want it to be. Screw them .. quote Shiber as I have above, to show why that we are insisting that there be a no-resell clause (Shiber has almost guaranteed that he will vote to resell it.) and also tell them that we are after a NAP because we are giving Chivalry to the nation with the largest army in the world.

Ask them how how we are supposed to take any long term agreement with them as serious with comments like that.

Zeit is the most level headed guy on the GS team. Send this to him...( I dont care that the Shiber chats were informal) and ask how he thinks we deal with a team that offers comments like that.

These guys may be great stategists, but their diplomacy just sucks big time. No wonder everyone hates them.

Offer them it again.
Chivalry for 200g (This is already locked in)
Wines for no-sell. (20 turns) so we can lock in a deal with 1 remaining team, who are holding out on purchasing it.
NAP for NAP (20 Turns) so we wont get attacked by the largest army in the world with knight technology that we just gave them.

[UnOrthOdOx]

How's this?

zeit,

I thank you for the response earlier, and am here to explain our position on the subject.

GoW is thuroughly confused with your position reguarding non-aggression pacts. It would seem to me that if indeed Gathering storm were truly attempting return to peacefull building it would be in their best interest to sign such pacts with everyone. After all, they are just a stating of peacefull intentions for X number of turns. That being said, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that Gathering Storm is not opposed to the idea of getting involved in a war on Bob. Given our proximity, it is also only logical that GoW would be a likely target, especially if the war turned into a pile-on affair. There would be less risk to the standing army that you now have if it were turned on a team already facing a divided front. Your very actions during the current conflict show that you may even be desiring such a conflict since we were the only other ones openly involved in the war. Perhaps you are seeking retribution for such an act.

Further more, based on recent discussions with Demogyptica and your own very willingness to even ask that they would discount the selling of Engineering would lead one to believe that your two teams have close ties. It is therefore not all that much of a stretch to believe that you are indeed part of such a plan as to attack GoW either now or later.

Gathering Storm has indeed proven themselves to be men of honor...reguarding the nature of deals that are made outside the context of the game mechanics. Even when specifically asked whether or not you would ever be the ones to break (ie, be the aggressor) a in-game 20 turn lux, resource, or GPT trade you have failed to say that you would never break such a deal and have attempted to sidestep the question. It seems to be then that it is Gathering Storms opinion that these deals are broken inside the game mechanics and are therefore fair game where Gathering Storm is concerned.

These things have frankly left us questioning exactly where we stand with Gathering Storm. However, uncertainty that is in place at the time, we WILL continue to hold to our agreements. We have already signed a deal to trade Chivalry and despite the fact that we may very well be facing the very knights this will give you, we will honor the deal as stated if no new deal is arranged.

Now to be aproached with an offer to trade a lux and Iron...At present we are not in the need for another luxury, so that would have little value at the present time. The Iron when and if needed does indeed have value to us, however, based on recent discussions we have not received an answer to our satisfaction that such a deal would also guarantee that you would remain neutral in the event of hostilities, therefore it is not a secure deal and would be completely worthless without the full duration of said deal. In such an environment it is in our better interest to use what gold we can get NOW than to make deals for a hypothetical future. Deals that are not even absolutely guaranteed for their duration.

Signature, politness, Panzers, proposal above blah blah...