Chat with GoW.

[Shiber]

The chat is ending... quite interesting, started a bit rocky but things smoothed out later.
If you have any particular questions you'd like to ask GoW, please post NOW.

[Shiber]

Part I

Session Start: Fri Mar 21 13:58:32 2003
Session Ident: #talks
[13:58] * Now talking in #talks
[13:58] * Shiber sets mode: +k negotiator

* Some irrelevant chatter... cut to the point where Zeit arrives.

[15:07] * zeit has joined #talks
[15:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Hello Zeit
[15:07] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: Greetings zeit
[15:07] Zeit: Hi, sorry for being late, i had some technical difficulties
[15:07] Zeit: but it's all fixed
[15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: unfortunately I must take my leave
[15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NP
[15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: Can't be late today
[15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 3 star generals ?
[15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: 3 different generals, only 1 is 3 star
[15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: they can wait then
[15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]:
[15:08] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: LOL
[15:08] Zeit: i'll just get my bearings then we can start
[15:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NP
[15:09] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]: I trust this is in good hand anyway, will read all about it at lunch
[15:09] * UnOrthOdOx[GoW] has quit IRC (Quit: )
[15:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Good Luck Unortho
[15:09] Zeit: let's make sure he's not dissapointed...
[15:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Panzer is in and out as well
[15:10] Zeit: oh well, i hope Shiber is still here
[15:10] Shiber[GS]: i'm here
[15:10] * Shiber[GS] sets mode: +o zeit
[15:10] -> *zeit* hi!
[15:10] Zeit: thanks shiber
[15:10] * Donegeal has joined #talks
[15:10] Shiber[GS]: hi Donegeal!
[15:10] Hiya guys!
[15:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Now you guys are in trouble
[15:11] * Donegeal is now known as Donegeal[GoW]
[15:11] Zeit: hi don!
[15:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: G'Day Don
[15:11] Hello sirs... so what is going on?
[15:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Havn't started yet
[15:12] Zeit: we'll start pretty soon, just have to check a couple of things
[15:12] ..and hope Unortho gets back..
[15:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Nope - He's gone
[15:13] damn... oh well..
[15:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Whats the time in US ?
[15:14] it is 0715 AM CST...
[15:15] Zeit: okay, i think we can start
[15:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: OK
[15:17] Zeit: First, i'd like to clarfify this one thing about our relations with Vox.
[15:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yep
[15:18] Zeit: It is of no military nature, like i said before, and includes no sort of protection pact
[15:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If I was stuck on an island, with Persia, I would work damn hard on getting a MPP / alliance
[15:19] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], that also depends on a lot of out-game factors
[15:19] Shiber[GS]: for example, who are the people you are dealing with?
[15:19] Shiber[GS]: are they stable? are they trustworthy? are they skillful at the game?
[15:19] Zeit: that's right, but we believe common interests will maintain peace better than artifical NAP...
[15:19] Shiber[GS]: very true.
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You mean ND & RP ?
[15:20] Zeit: vox
[15:20] Zeit: oops, sorry
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox is a loose canon
[15:20] Shiber[GS]: furthermore, a NAP has a defined expiration date
[15:20] Shiber[GS]: that raises all kinds of problems
[15:21] how?
[15:21] Shiber[GS]: that is, some tend to see the turn that marks the end of the NAP as the turn that could start the war
[15:21] Zeit: that would bring tension
[15:21] Shiber[GS]: we were thinking that Vox might interpret a NAP this way: "we want to attack you in 30 turns, but we're building up right now so don't attack us in the meantime, okay?"
[15:22] Panzer32[GoW]: we've had peaceful ends to NAPs, it seemed like neither team noticed it
[15:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Agreed - But you would renegotiate well before it ends and it they decline, you start to prepare
[15:22] Panzer32[GoW]: thats why we give longer NAPs
[15:22] Shiber[GS]: the thing with Vox is, we don't quite trust them
[15:22] Zeit: well, look at how the NAP between Lux-RP ended up..,
[15:22] Shiber[GS]: mostly because they're so unstable
[15:23] Zeit: and have little confidence in their own play
[15:23] Shiber[GS]: anyway, we've told you already - we don't have any NAPs or MPPs or any other such agreements with Vox. This cross-examination is unnecessary.
[15:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We dont really care if you do or dont
[15:23] Shiber[GS]: why is it that GoW worries so much about Vox?
[15:23] OK agreeed, but why should we believe you?
[15:24] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], ?????
[15:24] Shiber[GS]: I'm quite shocked to read this.
[15:24] Zeit: there's no reason actually, but the past has shown we don't lie
[15:24] Zeit: both of us
[15:24] I don't think you have a NAP or MPP with Vox, but why should we believe you?
[15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ok -
[15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This is our concern
[15:24] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], you can take our word for it. That's all we can offer.
[15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox is hording money
[15:25] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], explain please
[15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Why are vox hording money ?
[15:25] Shiber[GS]: how are they hording money?
[15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Plan Gold ?
[15:25] no... you could offer a map...
[15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Warrior -> Immortals
[15:25] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], even if we had a map of their territory, how would it prove that we don't have a NAP/MPP with Vox?
[15:25] Zeit: maps are regarded highly confidential, and so far no one had a view of our lands
[15:26] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], how do you know that they are hording up gold? And why do you think that they intend to attack your team in particular?
[15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ok -
[15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They tend to prefer money for tech
[15:26] Shiber[GS]: Zeit is correct, and as far as we know, GoW hasn't traded maps with anyone yet either.
[15:26] The fact that you refuse to give that info up make you shadey
[15:26] Zeit: slow down, please, i have a hard time keeping up...
[15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Gow has traded maps
[15:26] Shiber[GS]: with whom?
[15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: doesnt matter
[15:27] Shiber[GS]: okay - why should we believe you?
[15:27] Shiber[GS]: the fact that you refuse to tell us who you traded maps with makes you shadey
[15:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]:
[15:27] Shiber[GS]: see what i mean?
[15:27] Panzer32[GoW]: why should you not believe us?
[15:27] Shiber[GS]: if you keep up this attitude, then we're not going to get anywhere
[15:27] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], exactly.
[15:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]:
[15:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We traded maps because we had an agreement
[15:28] Zeit: anyway, this is the GS policy- our maps are very valuable, and won't be traded unless we have to
[15:28] Shiber[GS]: now, if we want to get somewhere, we have to start trusting each other.
[15:28] Zeit: that has nothing to do with our relation with vox, so please leave that out
[15:28] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], Panzer32[GoW], so far your team has proven to be fair and honest.
[15:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: yep agreed
[15:28] Shiber[GS]: So has ours, we believe.
[15:28] Shiber[GS]: there's no reason why we shouldn't trust each other.
[15:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: YEs you have
[15:28] guess its time to go exploring...
[15:29] Zeit: we've kept some info to ourselves, and intend to keep doing that, that's no reason to say we're not to be trusted.
[15:29] Panzer32[GoW]: so do we
[15:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I will tell you what has us concerned
[15:30] Zeit: we will tell you what we can, but the nature of your questions suggests we are to act as spies on Vox, why is that, are vox enemies to you?
[15:30] Panzer32[GoW]: I think we have more to lose by trading maps to you than you do to us.
[15:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are worried about warriors -> Immortal
[15:30] Zeit: perhaps, than why end up with a lose-lose situation
[15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox is 1 tile from our continent
[15:31] Zeit: so are we concerned with it, and keep an eye on the border
[15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Our problem is - you dont seem concerned
[15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You have a border agreement with the
[15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Them
[15:31] Panzer32[GoW]: Vox has the potential to be a direct threat. Like Cuba threatening US.
[15:31] Shiber[GS]: yes, that's simply to save us the bother of REXing over growth
[15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You have a tech alliance with them
[15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Therefore it is not a giant leap to assume you have a MPP or other with them
[15:32] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], we've told you already - there is no MPP between GS and Vox.
[15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If they are building immortals and are not going to attack you
[15:32] Zeit: it's not, but i tell you we have none, why are we back to square 1?
[15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Then who do they attack
[15:32] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], how do you know that they're not going to attack us?
[15:32] Shiber[GS]: honestly, we don't know either
[15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: OK - 1 step back
[15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We assumed you had a MPP
[15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: therefore we assume we would be their target
[15:33] Shiber[GS]: okay, we understand where you're coming from and the logic behind your assumption - but it is false.
[15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We can handle them 1 vs 1
[15:33] Shiber[GS]: i can guarantee you that
[15:33] Zeit: But i hope that now you understand we don't have an MPP
[15:33] Shiber[GS]: on my word
[15:33] Zeit: Shiber - ;
[15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: OK - No Probs
[15:33] Zeit:
[15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This is where we are coming from - no acusations
[15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We can handle them 1 vs 1
[15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: But if we are drawn into a Bob war ????
[15:34] Shiber[GS]: So, if I understand you correctly: you can handle Vox 1 on 1, but you are afraid that a war with Vox would leave you open to attacks from ND and RP?
[15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We would need to cover two fronts
[15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes
[15:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We could do it ... but it would be a defensive war
[15:35] Shiber[GS]: well, you know that GS has an interest in GoW. You are our best friends on Bob
[15:35] Shiber[GS]: therefore, although i can't commit to anything, i am sure that we will do whatever we can within reasonable limits to help you out
[15:36] Zeit: i concur
[15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I think we would like to explore that
[15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We have no interest in your continent
[15:36] Shiber[GS]: would GoW be interested in an agreement where GS were to attack Vox in case it declared war on you?
[15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are concerned about Vox
[15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That would be of great interest to us
[15:37] Panzer32[GoW]: would it work the other way? Or only one way?
[15:37] Shiber[GS]: alternatively, we can just ask Vox not to attack you. While we have no power over their decisions, it might sway them from the notion
[15:37] Shiber... that is an interesting idea...
[15:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: How can you ask that ?
[15:38] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], we are confident on our side.
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Do you have that close of relations with them ?
[15:38] Zeit: i hardly think our team would approve an MPP against Vox, but we could put some pressure on them
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It would only come into effect, if war breaks out on Bob
[15:38] Zeit: Of course, but wars break on Bob all the time...
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Let Bob sort out their own problems without having to worry about Vox or GS
[15:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]:
[15:39] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], hardly, but if we tell them something the sort of "we have heard this and that and we would suggest that you do not attack GoW", they might think that we're going to attack them in case they attack you - whether or not we actually have an agreement to do so
[15:39] Panzer32[GoW]: I'm going to eat breakfast now... I will check here from time to time
[15:39] Zeit: bon apetite
[15:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We would have to discuss the wording very carefully
[15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We though Vox v GS war was inevitable
[15:40] Shiber[GS]: in any case, we could try to work our a draft for an agreement where GS is obliged to attack Vox in case it attacks GoW (but not the other way around, as we see no need to this)
[15:40] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], don't be so sure. Vox are scared of us AFAIK, and GS are not of imperialistic nature.
[15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: But when nothing happened...we jumped to the comclusion that you are in league
[15:40] an exclusive MPP...
[15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We know very little about Vox or GS
[15:41] Shiber[GS]: sorry to deviate from the topic of our conversation, but do i lag?
[15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This sort of intel helps us
[15:41] Shiber[GS]: wait, let me try turning off P2P.
[15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NO

And BOOM! Blue Screen of Death for me. Zeit can fill in these few missing minutes.


[Donegeal] I don't think so...
[Zeit] of course this intel helps you, but we positive relations with Vox, and you fear alone is not enough for decision such as going to war
[HotE] That's why a MPP between us might work
[Donegeal] please.. an exclusive MPP...
[HotE] I should also tell you..
[Donegeal] hehehe an EMP..
[Panzer 32] How much of Vox's map do you have, GS?
[HotE] Not that we think that now
[Zeit] Shiber has some problems with connection he'll be right back
Another question Zeit
[Zeit] yes
[HotE] How are you relations with ND?
[Zeit] not much of it, they're apathic
[Donegeal] what about RP?
[HotE] We figured Sir Ralph would be talking to them
[HotE] NP


Session Start: Fri Mar 21 15:48:45 2003
Session Ident: #talks
[15:48] * Now talking in #talks
[15:48] Panzer32[GoW]: As I said, How much of the continent around Vox has been mapped by GS?
[15:48] * Shiber is now known as Shiber[GS]
[15:49] Shiber[GS]: back (computer crashed earlier)
[15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: np
[15:49] * zeit sets mode: +o Shiber[GS]
[15:49] Zeit: okay, back to business
[15:49] Zeit:
[15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Panzer ... your question first
[15:49] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW]: we have drawn a border line, and each team has explored a little beyond this line.
[15:49] Shiber[GS]: plus, during talks, we gave each other general descriptions of the land that the other can't see
[15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: is it 50-50 ?
[15:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: who got the better deal ?
[15:50] may we have that description?
[15:50] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW]: we can't tell for sure, since as I sad we haven't mapped the entire continent, but I think that we got the better deal.
[15:50] Zeit: no reason for that- done
[15:50] Zeit: done
[15:50] Zeit: donegeal
[15:50] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], I don't think our team would mind telling you about Vox's lands, though we have to ask there first.
[15:50] Don is fine... its easy to type...
[15:51] Shiber[GS]: but as far as I'm concerned, we can provide you with intel regarding Vox's troops (those that we can see), their resources (what we know) and their lands (again, what we know)
[15:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yep -- HE, Don & P32
[15:51] Zeit: HE= high explosive
[15:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]:
[15:51] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], Vox also knows that we got the better deal. We agreed that GS is to get the larger part of the continent because without a border treaty, we would win in a REX race anyway
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Well done
[15:52] Zeit: what about you're devision of ex-Lux lands?
[15:52] Shiber[GS]: we both agreed that GS could get more than what it secured for itself if both teams were to REX it out, but we also agreed that REXing is expensive, and comes at the expense of early growth and development
[15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Again - Good deal
[15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND & Gow have gone militaristic builds
[15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP - Marking their territory
[15:53] that seems very reasonable... if this is the case, why do you think Vox is a loose cannon?
[15:53] Shiber[GS]: so we decided to get less of the continent than we could have gotten (so perhaps, thinking in those terms, Vox were the ones to get the better deal out of it?), but we secured the ancient age border-wise and thus allowed ourselves to develop our cities instead of going into a senseless REX war
[15:54] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], it's our experience with Vox.
[15:54] Shiber[GS]: first of all, it took us a LOOONG while to get to this agreement
[15:54] Shiber[GS]: in the mean time, Vox kept provoking us
[15:54] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: So they are aggressive ?
[15:54] Shiber[GS]: later on, they brought in Lux - without asking us for our opinion.
[15:54] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], more senseless than aggressive
[15:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That worrys us
[15:55] Shiber[GS]: i don't think they were counting on an early war, IMHO they just thought that we would be scared and submit
[15:56] Panzer32[GoW]: they wanted to hold off the war chariots until they get immortals...
[15:56] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], perhaps
[15:56] Shiber[GS]: but now we are several times more powerful than them production-wise, so they probably abandoned all plans for war with us by now
[15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Again - That is what worries us
[15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Why waste their immortals
[15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They will want to attack someone
[15:58] Zeit: what about your position on Bob, what have you gotten from the ex-Luxian lands?
[15:58] -> *zeit* should we try to work on a draft for the agreement we talked about over the phone, while assuring GoW that if GS rejects it, then by no means this should imply that we have some sort of pact with Vox?
[15:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Its a land rush between us and ND
[15:58] lux lands sucked...
[15:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes - They arent great - no resources
[15:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We figured Sir Ralph would be very close to ND ? We are surprised that you dont deal with them much
[15:58] that was part of the reason that the war happened...
[15:58] *zeit* i don't know, it kind of beats itelf- to say it doesn't imply that...
[15:59] Panzer32[GoW]: Settling them also just results in corrupt cities - too far away from capitol
[15:59] -> *zeit* then let's hold this idea and raise it on the team's forum later instead
[15:59] Zeit: we can't say that we don't deal with them, just not much of comm
[15:59] *zeit* oka
[15:59] -> *zeit* worst case - GS rejects it, but at least GoW won't hear about this
[15:59] Zeit: so why don't you try to make a border treaty?
[15:59] *zeit* that's right
[16:00] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We havent stepped on each others toes yet
[16:00] Zeit: to stop the silly settling contest?
[16:00] Shiber[GS]: and mind me asking - how does RP fit into this?
[16:00] Shiber[GS]: you said that they marked their territory. how?
[16:01] Shiber[GS]: they just put up warriors and said "whatever's south of here is ours"?
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If there is a RP - ND war, we would rather not have a border treaty
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That was RP's method yes.
[16:01] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], what about the luxian lands - did you divide them between ND and yourselves?
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Lots of jungle in the middle of Bob
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Shiber - no
[16:01] Shiber[GS]: then who got Lux's lands?
[16:02] like you said... not much Comm...

[Shiber]

Part II

[16:02] Zeit: I think he said they rather take their chance at grabbing those
[16:02] Zeit: in the event of ND-RP war
[16:02] Shiber[GS]: oh ok
[16:02] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are telling each other where our settlers are going - and so far no problems
[16:02] Shiber[GS]: oh, almost forgot...
[16:02] * Shiber[GS] sets mode: +o Donegeal[GoW]
[16:02]
[16:02] Shiber[GS]: but you are still REXing?
[16:02] Shiber[GS]: this is bad news
[16:03] Shiber[GS]: i was hoping to hear that GoW is getting stronger
[16:03] Zeit: that's good- but why won't you try a border treaty- this could turn their attention towards RP, while you peacefuly develop
[16:03] I wouldn't call it Rexing perse...
[16:03] Panzer32[GoW]: we have Lux land to settle
[16:03] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], but if you don't build settlers fast enough, then ND is going to grab more land. That calls for serious REXing
[16:03] Panzer32[GoW]: they aren't going too fast either
[16:03] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There will be war on Bob .. we are in a "controled" expansion
[16:04] Zeit: right, but won't you be better with a slower paced settling, you have prime lands, like you said
[16:04] Shiber[GS]: Panzer32[GoW], now you're being kinda vague. You said that you haven't divided lands or secured any lands by form of treaty; given that, how can you say that you have Lux land to settle?
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If we swaped maps...we could show you
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]:
[16:04] they are open...that is why..
[16:04] Shiber[GS]:
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Lux was east of Gow & ND
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are both expanding east
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: eastish
[16:05] Shiber[GS]: okay, just so i get this straight: open, but not officially claimed by anyone, in-game or out-game, within a treaty
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: No border agreement
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: no treaty
[16:05] ... sorta...
[16:05] RP is not allowed up there...
[16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We just tell them where we are going...they do likewise
[16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: so far, no problems
[16:06] Shiber[GS]: you have an agreement with RP, or is this simply an unwritten rule?
[16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP have a heap of land
[16:06] -> *zeit* Great! We shifted the spotlight to GoW. Now they're the ones answering our questions!
[16:06] -> *zeit* keep hammering
[16:06] *zeit* ?
[16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Half the continent
[16:06] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], do you know how far south the continent stretches?
[16:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Maps have been swapped yes
[16:07] -> *zeit* earlier, GoW were practically interrogating us. now they're the ones answering questions
[16:07] Zeit: so how come you except their claim of so much land?
[16:07] *zeit*
[16:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Large continent with a lot of jungle in the middle
[16:07] Panzer32[GoW]: we didn't say we like it, but we have to live with it.
[16:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We cant do anything about it
[16:07] Panzer32[GoW]: ND blocks our route to them, and RP have blocked ND.
[16:08] sorry... breakfast... its an unwritten rule Shiber..
[16:08] Zeit: If you decide with ND, that you don't except the RP claim of the land, they'll have to negotiate
[16:08] Zeit: just push the entire conflict towards RP.
[16:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We havent settled all of north yet.
[16:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If we swapped maps, you woudl see
[16:09] Shiber[GS]: Apologies, I'll be on and off for the next couple of minutes, so I'm sorry if I can't answer questions directed at me immediately.
[16:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It is difficult to explain
[16:09] Panzer32[GoW]: we would need to build up before we incite a war.
[16:09] Zeit: right, but in the future, RP will actually claim those lands, and it will be tougher for both you and ND to expand
[16:09] too far away...
[16:10] Zeit: i didn't talk about war- just make an agreement with ND, that they push RP towards giving more land, supported by your efforts
[16:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Jungle in the middle. ND would rather claim land north of it. That leaves RP with the southern half of the contienent
[16:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They wouldnt want to claim jungle land just to get to RP's "border"
[16:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: North is easier
[16:11] Zeit: thso RP's land is basically moderate amount of habitable land, and lot's of jungle?
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Lots of jungle in the middle "unclaimed"
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP claims everything south "moderatlr good"
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND is north of the jungle and expanding North & East
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are at the top...also expanding east
[16:12] Zeit: okay, how fast do they do that?
[16:12] Zeit: expanding
[16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Who ? RP or ND
[16:13] Zeit: ND
[16:13] -> *zeit* we REALLY need to have a chat with ND later and compare notes
[16:13] *zeit* good thinking
[16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND & RP basically at the same speed
[16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: not Rex
[16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: keeping a good military build
[16:13] Zeit: but you're the ones against ND- so who's winning?
[16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Different civs
[16:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They have leftover swords from Lux war
[16:14] Zeit: on the Rex contest
[16:14] Zeit: you have Iron yet?
[16:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We have horsemen
[16:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes - but it is awkward position
[16:14] -> *zeit* thanks
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We killing barbs and have some elites
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Most of their swords are regulars
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are militaristic
[16:15] Zeit: I suggest you connect it, if ND has enough of it, they won't be upset
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They are religious
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes - ND has their own supply
[16:16] Zeit: so have certain edge you can take advantage of, but the Rex contest is not good for you at this point, IMHO
[16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are using galleys to find another source
[16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP has plenty
[16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: of iron
[16:16] Zeit: it will take time- harbors and all
[16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: there are islands between us and Lego - but no luck yet
[16:17] Zeit: i suggest you take the one you have, despite it's poistion
[16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Habours is the problem
[16:17] Zeit: it will be difficult for us to help you, with gold e.g. if you can't upgrade warriors
[16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We have...but if ND wants to, they could cut it off.
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: To ensure its supply, we would need to build too close to ND.
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: The last civ that did that...is no longer with us
[16:18] Zeit: all you need are a few turns- for a mass upgrade
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yep - so if there is war, it may happen before pikes and/or riders
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: but maybe not
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: we dont know
[16:19] Zeit: you could upgrade archers...
[16:19] Panzer32[GoW]: if we had archers...
[16:19] Zeit: are ND building militarily- you have reasons to suspect they want a war soon?
[16:20] Zeit: you're right- it's better to just upgrade warriors, but you also need Iron.
[16:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND vs RP ? ND vs Gow ? it could go anywhere
[16:20] Zeit: and until we have harbors, we can't help you with that
[16:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Do you have 2 sources of iron ?
[16:20] Zeit: ND vs Gow
[16:21] Zeit: even if we have one- we could lend it for a few turns
[16:21] Shiber[GS]: i agree with Zeit
[16:21] Shiber[GS]: and so does the rest of our team
[16:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND vs Gow War ?
[16:22] Shiber[GS]: we have no problems lending you some of our iron for several turns of mass upgrades
[16:22] Panzer32[GoW]: I will have to leave in about 10 minutes
[16:22] ok... we have given you lots of info on our situation... now lets get some feedback...
[16:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That is good to know
[16:22] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], with pleasure
[16:22] Zeit: I have some idea, for an iron trade... wait a bit
[16:23] I'll tell you what I know from our conversation...
[16:24] You have floodplains, desert and mountians...
[16:24] and if the map generator is consistant.. plains as well
[16:24] Shiber[GS]: yes
[16:25] Shiber[GS]: additionally, we have grasslands, some hills, some mountains and some river tiles
[16:25] I don't know about grasslands, but I figure that you have plenty of workers mining those mountians...
[16:25] Shiber[GS]: we have a lot of workers, yes
[16:26] ok... tell us about the border area... forces seen and such...
[16:27] Zeit: what do you say about this proposal, WRT your iron problem?
[16:27] Zeit: What if we both build harbors, as fast as viable, GoW will give some workers to GS, to speed the construction (by integration), and will also promise to buy Iron for several turns.
[16:28] We don't like giving up our workers...
[16:28] -> *zeit* they can't give us workers if we don't have a city on their continent or vice versa
[16:28] it is one of the advantages we have over ND...
[16:28] Zeit: yes, but won't you have to waste on a colony?
[16:28] Shiber[GS]: any other payment will do, as long as our team agrees on it
[16:28] Shiber[GS]: we have no intention of blackmailing you, though
[16:28] *zeit* right, i forgot that...
[16:29] Shiber[GS]: there's not much we can ask for only a few turns long supply of iron
[16:29] *zeit* but what about gifting a city?
[16:29] -> *zeit* eek, too radical for them i think
[16:29] um... you guys are avoiding the border question I ask just a bit agao...
[16:30] Shiber[GS]: Donegeal[GoW], i wanted to sort out the iron question
[16:30] Shiber[GS]: there's no need to get nasty
[16:30] Zeit: well, let me just say we see nothing suspicious of on the border
[16:30] Zeit: to be supsicious of
[16:30] hehehe... Shiber...think back to my posts to ET... you will know when I get nasty...
[16:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Iron yes - We would be interested in a backup supply of iron
[16:30] -> *zeit* not exactly, they've connected an iron with a colony... but we can only tell GoW that after we've agreed to share intel
[16:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will present any deal to our team - no probs
[16:31] *zeit* not wrt to forces movement, i meant...
[16:31] *zeit*
[16:31] *zeit* there's no reason to tell them what they don't ask for
[16:31] -> *zeit* oh, good
[16:31] -> *zeit* you're right
[16:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I am sure GF would have some ideas for payment methds
[16:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: methods
[16:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: we are interested in somehow using you to keep Vox off our back, if war breaks out
[16:32] Shiber[GS]: anyway, i take it that the question of iron has been resolved. currently such a deal cannot be carried out, since we don't have a harbor yet
[16:32] Zeit: we'll check out things as well- first of all when can we finnish a harbor...
[16:32] Shiber[GS]: we'll speed up construction though, if you get into war
[16:32] Zeit: cross posted
[16:32] Shiber[GS]: lol
[16:33] Panzer32[GoW]: I have to go now; keep up the good work guys
[16:33] Shiber[GS]: cya Panzer32[GoW]
[16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: this is good to know
[16:33] Zeit: see ya, bye
[16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: cya panzer
[16:33] * Panzer32[GoW] has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving )
[16:33] crap... I forgot a meeting I have to go to...
[16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NP Donegeal
[16:33] I have 30 mins before it starts!
[16:33] Zeit: well, isn't this an important meeting?
[16:33] * Donegeal[GoW] is now known as Donegeal
[16:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: any 3 star generals ?
[16:33] no...
[16:33] Shiber[GS]: this doesn't come to say that we are delaying the harbor, it's just low priority on our list. surely you agree that harbors aren't very important in the earlier stages of the game
[16:34] later
[16:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: cya
[16:34] Shiber[GS]: cya Donegeal
[16:34] * Donegeal has quit IRC (Quit: )
[16:34] Shiber[GS]: damn, he left before i could say goodbye...
[16:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will read the log
[16:34] Shiber[GS]: lol, i hope so
[16:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are interested in harbors because of our iron
[16:35] Zeit: Of course, do you have one?
[16:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Actually - I dont know - I dont think so yet
[16:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We havent even found iron yet on a island so....little reason for one
[16:36] Shiber[GS]: now that we have reached some sort of an agreement on the future question of iron trade, you may wanna speed up construction of that harbor of yours
[16:36] Shiber[GS]: our team might want to do the same too
[16:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We shall so
[16:36] Shiber[GS]: anyway, that's something we need to bring back to the private forum
[16:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Us as well
[16:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: IS there anything else that needs to be brought up ?
[16:37] Shiber[GS]: Hot_Enamel[GoW], we'd be happy to answer any questions you might have left
[16:38] Zeit: if possible..
[16:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 1:30am here - Wife is going to wake up very pissed soon
[16:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: No more Q's from me
[16:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Ask away if you have any
[16:39] Zeit: looks like we have none...
[16:39] Shiber[GS]: i wouldn't want to upset your wife
[16:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: thanks you
[16:39] Zeit: so i think you can go back to bed.
[16:39] Shiber[GS]: one thing though
[16:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Zeit - thanks for the chat
[16:39] Zeit: NP- I hope this helped easing the tension
[16:40] Shiber[GS]: we understand that GoW has been frustrated with tech trade
[16:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes it did - for me anyway
[16:40] Shiber[GS]: that is to say, you didn't like some of our refusals
[16:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It was annoying yes - It will still be annoying
[16:40] Shiber[GS]: i hope that now you understand that this was due to agreements that were signed between GS and Vox before GS had any contact with the outside world, and that they covered most of the ancient age
[16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You may find us offering more restrictions of tech trades
[16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: so we get the best deal from you & vox
[16:41] Shiber[GS]: of course, GS would be very interested in exchanging notes on research in the next age
[16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 4 sure
[16:41] Shiber[GS]: so keep your eyes and ears open
[16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Personal Note - You guys and your family stay safe ok
[16:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Keep your heads down
[16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: no problems
[16:42] Zeit: if we don'y inject atropine, it will be just fine
[16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]:
[16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: At leastyou have your sense of humor
[16:42] *zeit* i agree
[16:42] Zeit: left
[16:42] Zeit:
[16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Ok - gotta go
[16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Thanks again
[16:42] Shiber[GS]: cya Hot_Enamel[GoW]
[16:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: bye
[16:43] Zeit: thank you
[16:43] * Hot_Enamel[GoW] has left #talks

Summary to follow, got some RL to do.

[Shiber]

A personal message from UnOrthOdOx:

Greetings honored members of Gathering Storm
This is not an official statement by any means from GoW.
I would like to personally express my apologies for some of the actions of some of the GoW members in that chat. I noticed some combative attitudes and natures comming from some members, particularly donegeal. I cannot speak for all of GoW at this time, but I intend to bring it up.
Talking trash and wild accusations have a place, perhaps, in a forum, but not in a diplomatic chat where people are genuinely attempting to come together on issues. I am personally embarrassed by some of the statements and actions, and wish to express my apologies towards the GS members in the Chat.
Again, this is comming directly from myself, not from GoW as a whole at this time, never the less, feel free to express my feelings towards the whole of GS. If I had been able to remain, perhaps I could have dealt with it at the time, but alas, I can only do what I can now, for my own personal honor.
Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx, Foreign Affairs Consul of Glory of War

My reply:

Thanks UnOrthOdOx!
Things actually smoothed out and the rest of the chat was pleasant and informative. I think our teams can do business well in the future.
As for Donegeal's negative behavior, an old Jewish saying tells not to judge a man during his times of anger. My feelings for Donegeal did not change as a result of this chat: I still respect him as a person and fellow Apolytonian, and I certainly won't hold any grudge. You can tell Donegeal that, if he's concerned.
Let us forget about that unpleasant event and focus on the future of both our teams.

Best regards,
Shiber.

(corny, but it does the job )

[Shiber]

More of UnOrthO:

Therefore deal with things before they happen;
Create order before there is confusion. - Lao Tzu

Your team has been the most pleasant to deal with so far, at least to me, and I think we are heading along the proper path to continue that relation. zeit is a wonderfull diplomat, and I did not care to see him disrespected such as that. I am a little defensive of the relations with GS since I was originally assigned to you.

Reply:

That's good to hear.
It's always pleasant to hear from you too.

[Shiber]

Here's a summary of what went on in the chat:

What we spilled: mostly stuff that they already know - our only treaties with Vox are tech-related ones, why we don't like Vox very much and believe them to be unstable and often senseless, etc'.

What they spilled: they are afraid that Vox might attack them. They are confident that they are able to handle Vox, but they fear that the other Bobians will take advantage of that and open another war - and GoW can't fight a two-front war. They also think that Vox is stockpiling gold, because they insist on paying with gold for the things that GoW offers them.
GoW and ND did not officially divide the formerly Luxian territories, nor do they have any other sort of border agreement. ND and GoW are REXing for the formerly Luxian territories. GoW believes that ND is getting the better part of those territories.
RP is believed to own roughly half of the continent. They positioned scouts in the northern borders of the jungle belt and declared everything south of it theirs, and noone has objected or tried to settle in the jungle.

GoW may be interested in striking a few deals with us that could benefit us greatly. I will detail this in another thread.

Regarding attitude during the chat: Donegeal was a little rough at the beginning, not wanting to accept our word that our treaty with Vox is purely technological, but eventually we persuaded him into taking our word, explaining to him that if we can't have trust then there's no point in continuing the chat.