Chat with GoW.

[zeit]

If you've read the log of GoW in the last couple of days- you know what i'm talking about, if not, go and read- it's important for our future.

In short- the GoW is quite upset about our secret "alliance" with Vox. They are also having difficulties in negotiating with Vox, and as the winds of war blow on Bob once again (according to HotE), there is some understandable frustration as a result of what seems like an anti Bob alliance, and a fear from a seaborne invasion, or some intervention, in any future war.

I've tried to clarify some of the more basic issues, and have told him we have no military alliance with Vox, and that we see GoW as an important trading partner- with some insight they already have: ND's apathy and RP scheming and powerful position.

I probably said something some of you will probably didn't want to be said- but i thought it was appropriate, given their relativel openness, and the recent crisis between us.

In the chat, i'd like to elaborate on the issue of our tech partnership with Vox, the border treaty, the background of it, and the plans for the future.

Of course, i wouldn't want to say too much, but i want to be as open and as honest as possible, regarding issues like:

1)The history of our relationship and future plans with Vox. Most importantly- our intention to end the tech partnership pretty soon.
2)Our plans for trade with GoW.
3)How we see our relationship with the GoW- perhaps a NAP? (they're not the most comfortable target- RP or ND will make a better one, so i think we should go for it).

Add your own thoughts please.

Oh, and, when a time for a chat is scheduled, i want someone besides me be there for the GS- i type pretty slowly, and hardly and expert on the technical details of the game.

[Shiber]

Please do not say that we intend to end our tech agreement with Vox soon. Telling them that it will not last forever would be enough - they can guess on from there. What I'm concerned about is that if we tell GoW that we're going to end the tech agreemenet with Vox, then they might let it slip to Vox, and IMHO, it'd be best if we're the ones to break the news to Vox, not a third party - especially before they have entered the middle ages and have passed on to us their free tech.
Anyway, I'll be there if time permits.

[notyoueither]

I am dismayed that you let slip the trading agreement with Vox. That is water under the bridge now, but there are always other answers to give without lying.

I offer my assistance to any ambassador who feels themselves put on the spot regarding sensitive information. I can find many subtleties of the English language when called upon to do so. I am also on far more often now that the ISDG is in full swing.

As to revealing any further information regarding our plans for the future, I must say NO! Telling any team about our intentions regarding another team practically assures that that other team will find out within 24 hours. Don't do it! Unless, we want that other team to find out, that is.

I would be available for chats after 10pm EST any day. Earlier on Saturday. More open on Sunday.

[zeit]

NYE- you should say you are dismayed that it was slipped to GoW, because as far as i know- they knew we had at least a trading alliance with Vox. Us keeping all the cards to ourselves at that point would have been a mistake IMHO, but of course that does not mean we should tell about our plans, and so forth.

I just thought that at that point, not telling them, at the very least that we don't have an alliance with a military nature, and only a tech trading one.


Okay, i see some comments against plans for the future, and that's reasonable, but what i tell them about the past?
I thought i'd tell them about the instability with Vox tends to act (in more gentle words, of course) and that for the sake of stability on our island, given Vox's bad starting position and unskilled play, we had some agreements with them, that perhaps favor both, but in the long run helped us achieve our goal. We also head in mind that Vox, at that time, was our only option for reaching the world.

Also- please comment on HotE's several questions- (boys these GoWs sure are paranoid... ):

"How GS fits in the picture with Vox?" pretty much what is going to be discussed in the chat, and talked about- but should i tell them we don't really like them, or that we keep it to ourselves?

"How much land they have (are they rexing or are they building up military)?"- We honestly don't know exactly, but what should i really tell them.

"What are they doing with all of their immortals?"
Don't know, see next question.

"Do they have iron ? Do they have immortals ?"
They can check that with the mil advisor, right?

Again, i don't feel comfortable with sharing this kind of sensitive information, but i'm sure we can find some things we can tel them, honestly, or at least sounding honest, which would probably include giving away info.

[zeit]

Oh, and, he said he's online on 1130 GMT, and tommorow at that time fits me perfectly. Unless anyone says he's better off on saturday or sunday, i think i'll do it tommorow.

[Shiber]

These hours are impossible for me. If you could only hold the chat several hours later, say at 13:00GMT... but please don't delay the chat because of me (unless you really want company ).

"How GS fits in the picture with Vox?" pretty much what is going to be discussed in the chat, and talked about- but should i tell them we don't really like them, or that we keep it to ourselves?

IMHO we can say that they're unstable, unskilled and have had a bad starting location. I dunno about mixing our personal feelings into this, though...

"How much land they have (are they rexing or are they building up military)?"- We honestly don't know exactly, but what should i really tell them.

Well, we honestly don't know, but we can tell them our speculations as far as I'm concerned: that Vox has enough land for ~10 cities (am I right?), and that they are not REXing at the moment (let's not mention the border agreement), and we honestly don't know what they're doing (though it is possible that they are REXing, they're just doing this too slow due to their rough terrain and due to several mistakes in planning that they've done and other unskillful decisions, and therefore it doesn't look like REXing in the eye of the beholder).

"What are they doing with all of their immortals?"
Don't know, see next question.
"Do they have iron ? Do they have immortals ?"
They can check that with the mil advisor, right?

I dunno, I think they need an embassy to check that themselves.
I suggest that we tell them that they have iron near one of their cities but not yet within its cultural borders (which is true), and that we haven't seen any immortals yet (which is also true).

I hope my reflections helped!

[notyoueither]

He's fishing, and possibly looking at the possibility of crossing the channel to attack Vox, or are worried about Vox crossing. Reports of tension on Bob may be overblown.

re relations with Vox. Rocky, but we have been able to live with them. Prior to contact we made the tech agreement with them and things calmed down a great deal.

We aren't sure about how much land Vox has or what they are building. We can't see it.

re Immortals. If GoW had Iron, they could see if Vox did via the trade window. We should not reveal that we can see Vox having Iron hooked up. That would be dangerously close to betrayal of the people who have been pretty good for us lately (the thing with Lux aside). It will come back and bite us in the rump. I am sure of that.

To be honest, I am not comfortable with the direction their questions are taking. We are no longer discussing our relations with GoW, we are being asked to act as spies on our neighbour. I'm not sure what is going on between Vox and GoW, but GS is neutral at this point and will not act against either of them with the other. I would tell them something along those lines.

Then ask what the heck is going on between them that they are so inquisitive about Vox all of a sudden.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Shiber
I suggest that we tell them that they have iron near one of their cities but not yet within its cultural borders (which is true), and that we haven't seen any immortals yet (which is also true).

This is good.

[notyoueither]

I just read the last message. Should have read it earlier.

Instead of giving them info re Vox, it might be a good idea to assure GoW that GS would be inclined to do whatever we could to prevent Vox from siding against GoW on Bob. We cannot assure them on specifics at this point, because we cannot foresee circumstances, but we can see that GoW being harmed is certainly not in our interests.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by notyoueither
He's fishing, and possibly looking at the possibility of crossing the channel to attack Vox, or are worried about Vox crossing.

You may be right... and since we don't want GoW to attack Vox (since their lands are rightfully ours... right? ) we may want to exaggerate when we report their strength, to dismay GoW from attacking them.

We should not reveal that we can see Vox having Iron hooked up. That would be dangerously close to betrayal of the people who have been pretty good for us lately (the thing with Lux aside). It will come back and bite us in the rump. I am sure of that.

I agree.
IMHO our rule of thumb should be: anything that we tell GoW will be known by one or more other civs in 24 hours. Therefore, before we tell anything to GoW, we must think what would be Vox's reaction if they found out what we're going to tell GoW, and if it's really worth it.

To be honest, I am not comfortable with the direction their questions are taking. We are no longer discussing our relations with GoW, we are being asked to act as spies on our neighbour. I'm not sure what is going on between Vox and GoW, but GS is neutral at this point and will not act against either of them with the other. I would tell them something along those lines.

I agree! Good wording too, especially the part about being asked to act as spies on our neighbour, though I would add that we see such actions dishonorable when done towards any civ, not Vox in particular (so that they won't get the impression that there really is some sort of GS-Vox pact).

Then ask what the heck is going on between them that they are so inquisitive about Vox all of a sudden.

You raise an excellent point. After we provide them with information, it's their turn to spill out something of their own. If we do not end our reply with our own questions, they will ask more questions of their own and we'll miss a chance at finding out more of what goes on on Bob, while having to divulge more information just to get another shot at firing questions back.

[Arrian]

They really are trying to pump us for info, aren't they?

Makes me wonder what the hell they're up to...

-Arrian

[zeit]

Some great comments were made- keep up the good work!

I'll probably meet HotE tommorow on the poly channel, but i'll try to talk him into making this chat some 90 mins later, so that Shiber could join.

Shiber- i have no clue with mIRC, can you please tell me how i do the following:

1) set up a channel with password protection- nothing fancy with nicks registration and all, just plain password.
2) log the chat

[Shiber]

Damn, I'm really really low on time right now... I'll have to make it quick, so if you don't understand everything...

Set up a channel: simply join an unused channel (example: by typing '/join #serious-chat'). Set up a password: in the channel, type '/mode #channel-name +k your-password' (of course, only if you're channel operator - you should have a @ near your name).
Log the chat: under the mIRC options dialog box, see the category 'logging'. I can't explain right now how to use it, so please try to work it out by yourself, or read the help files (also see mirc.co.uk for some help).

Good luck, and I'll do my best to make it!!

[zeit]

Okay, here are the details:

time: 13:00 GMT
server: apolyton
channel: #talks
password: negotiator

Shiber- Hope you can make it!

[Shiber]

I'm home. Logging on now...