Grog, our mighty warrior

[Shiber]

Better not name units after members of the other teams (Thud is a member of RP IIRC). What if they see them? What are we supposed to say then?
"Uhh, we were just thought that, uhh, it would be kinda, uhh, funny, if we, uhh, well..."

[DeepO]

Alva: embassies: we should mention this to Lux, but I doubt that RP wouldn't establish an embassy, and act as a scout for ND and GoW.

Re: galley argument: is it so weak? Grog gives us an advance warning of multiple turns for any galley coming from the North, I think that's important.

I'm half willing to accept that Vox can be trusted enough for us to retreat Grog, and Lux could be monitored a lot better with Grog on the road to Lux, instead of on lookout ridge. I also can imagine that it worries Lux to have a warrior this close, indeed, a road is easily pillaged.

I was thinking on perhaps making a deal with Vox:
- First of all we clearly state all reasons why we would want him there (galleys, Lux and Vox(in that order of importance))
- Second we give them some way of destroying him, by e.g. saying we think it is ok if they positioned an immortal on the road North of Grog. If we move Grog without previous consent, they're able to destroy him without us ever treathening workers or improvements.
- Third, we can ask to quell our fears, by not accepting any immortals South of Grog, and warning us when a foreign galley is visible from the Voxian home land.

I agree it's kind of strange, but if we give them the means to get rid of Grog if he doesn't behave, maybe they will permit him to stay considerably longer. And by asking for the third part of the deal, we might get some recon after Grog is forced to move to prevent him from staying in Vox cultural borders.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

According to Vox, they don't have their iron hooked up yet, which would mean they don't have immortals yet.

[alva]

Alva: embassies: we should mention this to Lux, but I doubt that RP wouldn't establish an embassy, and act as a scout for ND and GoW.

I know, but at least we lower the chances of it happening. We can hardly ask Lux to declare war on RP, just so they would be able to open one

Another point: What happens, if we were to open one with Lux.
1. We open one now,
2. Lux moves to Lego island
3. Lux gets a new capital
4. ?( do we get a free view of their new capital for example?)
I'm not suggesting we should do this, just curious

[DeepO]

I also thought about opening embassies, but really, it serves not much good right now. The only thing we possibly gain from it, as long as we're not going to invest cities (we can't see) is to know the exact territory around the capital. I don't know whether that view moves, or not, but there is no point in establishing an embassy with Lux now, instead of after they moved, nor with any other team. Let other teams pay for the embassy if they want to. We don't need it

DeepO

[Arrian]

DeepO,

Establishing an embassy will show the size of the capitol, the terrain & improvements (hence its production/commerce) the allocation of commerce to tax/science/luxury, what they are building and what resources and luxuries they have access to.

So it's not entirely useless. And if we're going to be going 0% research for a few turns, it may be a good idea to establish embassies with ND and Roleplay, maybe GoW too.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

That's not my point. My point is that the 21-tile map will show on both sides, so not only do we gain intelligence, we lose secrecy... and we could possible gain the map information by a Luxian world map anyhow, so I consider the loss too great atm; we would only gain a little inside information on their empire.

DeepO

[Arrian]

No, I don't think it shows both sides. Only the side paying for the embassy gets to see inside the capitol of the other civ.

-Arrian

[alva]

Arrian, apparently in MP games, it works both ways.

In the euro PBEM I recently established one with DeepO. after that he could see my city too

[nbarclay]

Alva also established an embassy with me, so I also have the opportunity to see his capital.

[DeepO]

Yeah, if it wasn't like that, we would be best to establish emassies everywhere, so that others have no map information on our capital. But indeed, I was rather surprised to see Alva's capital at once in the the Euro PBEM, and right now, I think I was lucky: let Alva see my capital, if I can see his and don't need to pay anything for it I'm fine. I'm sure Nathan is less eager to establish an embassy in that game now that he knows this, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for his view

BTW, I never noticed it in SP games, but it's quite likely that this hasn't changed. I sure as hell would think it would make the MP games deeper if Firaxis changes it in a one-way view.

DeepO

[Arrian]

If the AI establishes an embassy with me in a SP game, I don't get to see their capitol. The only embassy I've established in MP play was a PBEM game with a friend of mine, and he didn't mention that he got to see my capitol (fat lot of good that did him, though ). Interesting... and silly. Why pay for the embassy, then?

I could see working out a deal with a civ with whom you wish to ally that you split the cost of the embassy just so you can get one up and running. Otherwise, there is no advantage at all to the civ that foots the bill.

Dumb.

-Arrian

[alva]

It does sound like a bug doesn't it.
When the patch comes out I'll open one with Alex (euro-pbem) to see if anything changed.

[FrustratedPoet]

I know Soren might be lurking here, but do we know if Firaxis are aware of this bug (if indeed it is one). If not I suppose NYE could mention it in one of his playtesting reports, or something...

[DeepO]

Arrian, there is a mini advantage, but in my eyes certainly not worth the cost: you see the gold reserve, tech spending, and city view of the capital. But that is hardly worth the cash...

OTOH, if establishing an embassy would mean that others can't do it with you, it would become a race towards first establishing embassies just to prevent spoiling map information to possible enemies, so this is a lot more fun. I really hope Firaxis changes it.

DeepO