Grog, our mighty warrior

[DeepO]

Well, perhaps it's time to centralize some ideas wrt to Grog. It's obvious that Vox would rather see him go, so they don't need to protect all their workers from him. It's also obvious that Grog is our best scout, not only to keep an eye on Vox (and his workers), but also to other civs that might sail down the coast towards our cities.

At first sight, we don't want to move him, Vox wants to, and we need to anticipate that in a few turns, they will simply demand his departure. How are we going to react to that, and what can we tell them to convince them to let Grog stay for as long as possible?

One thing to consider: if Grog would be retracted to behind our borders, Vox would keep less military around for protection. I'm not saying that as a result Vox will have less troops, but I assume they will use more troops on our borders, and less troops to spot for barbs. If they intend to keep their workers undefended in the middle of the jungle, while barbs can rise, it might not be a bad idea to let them do it.

DeepO

[alva]

One way to (try to) keep him there, is arguing that we need him there to track Lux from the other side...
(not the best arguement, but it should hold for a couple of extra turns).
-
Forgetting to move him is another way of going about it

[DeepO]

yeah, but forgetting will piss them off, so we can't really use that for too long. It would only make them think it's okay to delay us as well...

If we want him to stay, we need to have a reason why we need him there, one which Vox can understand. Plus, we might want to think about compensation, as Vox has on scout in our territory (nor do we want them)..

DeepO

[Shiber]

Originally posted by alva
Forgetting to move him is another way of going about it

Let's leave these dirty tactics to Vox.
I'd rather tell them something along the lines of "we want to keep Grog in that position for the same reason that you want to keep [insert name of Vox warrior scout on the mountain] in his position. In either case, we can't be blamed for being paranoid about Lux Invicta, especially after the deal involving this infamous civ was enforced upon us".

[Arrian]

I'd like to see them extend US a little trust by letting him be and not worrying about us stealing workers or any such thing. Damn. We go and set up this elaborate partnership, we accept their fait accompli w/regard to Lux's move without anger, and we put up with their constant "forgetting" to do things like give us contact and such...

-Arrian, defender of Grog

[Shiber]

I think Arrian is absolutely right. I'd like Vox to realize how much trust and tolerance we've put into them.

grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

Right again!

[zeit]

We would argue that we need to keep him there- in order to monitor for galleys, as well as for anything suspicious Lux does.
We should also mention we have no hostile intentions whatsoever, what i'm sure Vox suspects of us- they won't demand us retreating him, but an understanding on this issue could strengthen the relationship.

[Shiber]

The galleys argument is weak. I suggest that we drop it, and focus on our right to monitor Lux's activities.
I also suggest that we mention something along the lines of "this treaty between Lux and yourselves has been rather enforced upon us. We feel that we have the right to monitor Lux's activities and make sure that this treaty is being kept and Lux isn't trying anything funny, especially considering that Lux has had a problematic past in terms of honoring agreements".

[zeit]

I agree the galley argument is weak- but also that Lux will give Vox its techs (including the 4 "scientific" techs) is irrelevant- and it didn't make Vox jump of the chair and shout- "hey its irrelevant!"

What i mean is, that it thickens our case, on a first glimpse- we have two "self defense" arguments. If one is weak, than we shouldn't focus on it, but it doesn't necessarily mean we should drop it.

[nbarclay]

I think we need to pull Grog back after Vox founds another city or two (depending on exactly where they are). We're in a lot better shape militarily now that we have one barracks essentially finished and another one or two (depending on whether we leave Tempest on a barracks) underway, and we'll be building up a large cash reserve that could be used for emergency upgrades waiting for Vox to finish Philosophy. In any case, it's one thing to keep Grog where he is when no Voxian city is near him and quite another to keep him there when he's practically on top of a Voxian city.

Nathan

[Shiber]

Originally posted by zeit
What i mean is, that it thickens our case, on a first glimpse- we have two "self defense" arguments. If one is weak, than we shouldn't focus on it, but it doesn't necessarily mean we should drop it.

I disagree. I've been to several lectures on rhetorics, most of which revolved around the matter of how to properly convince someone. One of the most important things that I've learned is that adding weak arguments to support your point does not add more power to your stand; in fact, in most cases it will even set you back.
If a strong argument is coupled with a weaker one, it would appear as if the speaker does not put enough confidence in his stronger argument, so he decided to add another one, to strengthen his point; if it is a really weak argument, like in our case, it would also convey that the speaker is so uncertain of his point or stand, that he felt the need to add additional arguments, even if these are very weak and almost completely irrelevant.

[Arrian]

Shiber,

You're right regarding weakening one's agruement by mixing a strong case with a weak one. However, Vox is... well, frankly they're not too smart - look at their deal with Lux!

Anyway, I agree with Nathan: Grog stays for now, but once they plunk down a city that puts him in their territory... I think we must withdraw him.

-Arrian

[Shiber]

Never underestimate your enemies.
Vox is not stupid. Childish and hasty, yes, but not stupid. In any case, the rules of rhetorics apply to all men, especially to the dim-witted. Therefore, my suggestion to drop the weak argument and use only the strong one remains.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber
Never underestimate your enemies.
Vox is not stupid. Childish and hasty, yes, but not stupid. In any case, the rules of rhetorics apply to all men, especially to the dim-witted. Therefore, my suggestion to drop the weak argument and use only the strong one remains.

It applies to the dim-witted only if they realize that the argument is weak. But assuming that someone won't recognize a weak argument as weak is dangerous.

Regarding warning about galleys, Vox would certainly respond, "We can warn you if foreign galleys approach." So I can see that argument flying maybe a centimeter or so before it falls to the ground with a resounding thud. (Hmm, if we have a regular warrior we haven't gotten around to naming yet, Thud might be a good name for him. )

[alva]

Isn't Thud the name of a member of the RP-team?

And Shiber is right.

Btw: I just thought of something. You can't an embassy while at war, can you?
So that's not a bad thing, and something we shouldn't mention to Vox.