DIPLO: Legoland Comments

[Cort Haus]

I understand if everyone's hating Lego atm, but I thought vondrack was being candid, and I appreciate that. It's good to know where you stand, and he's finally admitted that Lego decided to eliminate GS from contention (though not as a power). There's no shame in losing the game to a 3 vs 1 alliance .

Two things that jumped at out me

1) Lego/Vox are not about to attack our east coast.

2) Once their triple alliance has defeated us, Lego want us as an ally. If we time it right, we could jump a preoccupied Bob for land and revenge.

[Harovan]

Lego will not invade Bob. And I'm strongly against an alliance with Lego. I'm in fact in favor for an alliance against them.

[Cort Haus]

I don't think GS have to do anything to punish Lego than let events take their course. Unless GoW/ND split up, it's Lego's turn next.

As long as GS is on Bob, we'll have all three powers against us - so why bother? We were dealt a small continent, we tried to do something about it, and were stopped by Lego. Now let Lego enjoy the fruits of their intervention - a Bobian monster which is about to turn on its creator. Pass the popcorn!

[Harovan]

Yes I will. And I'm not even thinking of helping Lego out.

[Theseus]

CH, I didn't realize you were on... almost bedtime though? Shall we play the turn tomorrow? (btw, do you sleep? )

Re Lego: I respect their stance, I respect their diplomacy, and I respect their (i.e., vondrack's) tone throughout. On the other hand...

[asleepathewheel]

On the other hand, we really don't want them to win this game unscathed, do we? They need to at least earn the win. Sitting back and paying others to do their bidding, ie, drive us out, is all well and good, but it must come back on them.

[Theseus]

Oh, no, Lego ain't gonna get off easy.

[Harovan]

Still it would make sense to help ND to conquer the whole continent of Bob. Not only would this eliminate GoW and piss off Lego, it would also enforce Lego to forge a world wide alliance against ND if they want to win. The so-called builders would have to show their true face. A joint invasion of everybody else on Bob would be the consequence, an event where the cards are newly dealt.

[Cort Haus]

Nice idea, SR

There are a lot of possibilities, but I definitely feel we need a period of building while others are fighting - before making a dramatic (and highly satisfying) comeback.

[Cort Haus]

SR's idea becomes more attractive by the hour. RP would be ecstatic at the mere thought.

Key question for now : do we doggedly hang on to what we have in Spain - perhaps hanging on for some Saltpeter to cling a little longer - or do we 'sell up' - cutting one or both opponents a deal. GoW may be prepared to offer us Bobian luxury-colonies if we get RP off.

ND could not have eliminated our 19 Knights - GoW must have finished it - and must have taken casualties themselves. You don't kill 19 units at odds of 4:3.75 without losing plenty yourself - which could allow Pamplona the little more time it may need.

[vulture]

So what exactly are you proposing Sir Ralph? A deal with ND where we get say 100 tiles, and they get the other 650, so they become a monster that Lego can't ignore? Then we and Lego attack before ND can take full advantage of their new land, and hey presto, we're back in the game with only Lego and possibly still a significant ND to worry about.

[Harovan]

The plan has at least the charm that it doesn't leave us completely passive, but lets us (try to) take our fate in our own hands. I'm absolutely unsure how to start it diplomatically, though.

What we should do now is, to consider our status carefully. Everything we own at Bob and are realistically able to defend, should be sold at the highest possible price. We could press on the GoW, since the war hurts them more than it hurts ND, who is already happy building, while the GoW is still not able to expand.

I don't think that we will be allowed peacefully to leave luxury colonies on Bob. The best deal we can get out of it is to get a lifetime share of the luxuries for free.

As sad as it sounds, but in terms of our own interests it is worth to consider to let Spain die. I would be all for it. N Stormia is not much, but at least it is something.

[Harovan]

vulture:

I'm proposing to ally with them against GoW and give them all of Bob. It should sound something like "Ok guys, we realize we lost, but wouldn't like GoW or Lego to win this game, since we hate them ... bla bla ... excuses ... so we are now in favor to push your victory. A stalemate between you, GoW and Lego is a very unstable situation. We propose to help you to get the GoW off Bob and grant you the whole continent for yourself. That would dwarf Lego compared with you and makes it very likely for you to win."

After this succeeds, I am sure, Lego would trumpet a worldwide alliance together and call for a storm of Bob. Who then takes what and who receives the lions share, is up to us. The cards are newly dealt.

Of course, if Lego would see the danger earlier and join the war on GoW's side, things would get interesting. I deem ND+GS at least as strong as Lego+GoW. At least this time we would have the more powerful ally.

The only downside is, that I really don't know how to get ND to wage this stunt.

Oh and btw: I have absolutely no problem with the fact, that we would basically backstab them later. The age of "honorable playing" and moral highground is definitely over.

[vulture]

If the price of RP's continued survival is that they survive in North Stormia, then I'm all in favour of them leaving the game. I don't think we should hurt our own civ just to let them exist. If we could really regard them as completely bound by our agreement, then there would be value in using the corruption reducing effects of their palace to get more production out of the north (and 'hiding' some of our potential) but despite our treaty, I'm not convinced we can do that (plus we can't pool research in the same way - we can take all their money and jack up our own though). But since I don't think we can trust them (or use them) to that extent, I'd happily let them die too.

Are we going to have to pull a Vox/Lux here? Get RP settled in their new home and then take them out by force? Or are we going to persuade them to give back the North Stormia cities, move back to Bob, and then cut them lose in a deal with ND and GoW.

I really don't think that a lifetime lux deal is worth anything. The attitude of GoW and ND is almost certain to be that the deal is valid until next time we go to war, at which points all deals are off. The deal just isn't worth much.

I suspect we'd do better trading the cities for techs we don't have yet (in return for ND / GoW not having to invest another 40 odd knights to get them). This would probably have to be a three-way negotiation.

Then we can try and stike a deal with ND (and admit to them that we tried a similar deal with GoW to get rid of ND, since they've probably heard at least rumours about this by now). Being beaten back off Bob, and all teams knowing the tile counts for the big civs once this is done will stop us looking like the big target, and someone else can be public enemy number one for a while. We try to deal with ND to get rid of GoW, with them taking the lion's share, and then deal with Lego to get rid of ND (or vice versa). Once GoW are gone, then we have two roughly equal powers (with ND having better potential but worse development), with us not being the obvious target but strong enough to shift the balance of power and hopefully get ourselves back into a two horse race for the win.

Or, the wars might go the same way as the last one, or teams may not like the deals, or some other deals between teams crop up which scupper our plans. Such is life.

So I'd suggest that for the Sir Ralph plan (operation Steamed Rice? - or is that the kill GoW/China part of the equation) is to find a way to get RP off Stormia, and then leave them to the wolves once the wolves pony up a decent amount of incentive. Rutheless, isn't it.

[vulture]

Addendum to crosspost with Sir Ralph - If offering them all of Bob is what it takes, then I'm still in favour. We should try to get some territory though, and see if they'll play. And they can surely figure out that 100 tiles wouldn't pose much of a threat to them - a small threat to land on Stormia wuold force us to keep a lot of force in our core, and then they can take the rest of Bob if they really want to, so any land we get on Bob would be held at their permission really.

It can't hurt to ask for some land as a negotiating position though, can it.