DIPLO: Proposal to RP

[DeepO]

Okay, a poll on what I should propose to RP.

They offered us a deal of a bunch of techs we already are getting from Vox, and a bunch of contacts that we'll get for free if we wait, so the response to that would be obvious. But I'd like to offer them a counter deal, even if we fully antcipate they won't take it, at least it's a show of good will, and compassion.

So the options in the Poll:

1. Loan proposal to RP, where we aim at 50 gold for 3 gpt for 20 turns. Probably won't be accepted, but it's the gesture that counts.

2. worker for gold, or gpt (not sure how much)

3. non-aggresion pact of sorts

4. 'forbid to settle too close to us' pact.

5. full (=current) minimap trade

6. Other, specify which.

7. Vote counter: Because this is a multioption pall, we need some way of figuring out how many people have voted. Always tick this one, please. If you don't want any of the above proposed, only tick this option, it will be a equivalent with a NO-vote over the entire line.

One day until end, it's not that important we need more time to discuss this. It's just a proposal after all, with few long term implications.

DeepO

[alva]

1. sure
2. excellent idea
3. depends on how many turns
4. nah
5. nope

6. wonder trade agreement..?

[Shiber]

Re: DIPLO: Proposal to RP

Originally posted by DeepO
But I'd like to offer them a counter deal, even if we fully antcipate they won't take it, at least it's a show of good will, and compassion.

Good idea. We don't want them getting the impression that they bought our contact for nothing and getting all upset at us as a result.

I'm not decided about all the proposals yet. Therefore, I would hold my vote for several hours.

[Harovan]

None of them. At least not yet.

[nbarclay]

Re: DIPLO: Proposal to RP

Originally posted by DeepO
Okay, a poll on what I should propose to RP.

They offered us a deal of a bunch of techs we already are getting from Vox, and a bunch of contacts that we'll get for free if we wait, so the response to that would be obvious. But I'd like to offer them a counter deal, even if we fully antcipate they won't take it, at least it's a show of good will, and compassion.

Your use of the word "compassion" sounds rather arrogant considering that at this particular tiime, RP seems to be about as strong as we are. I don't know whether that reflects your actual attitude or whether you've missed a nuance of the English language, though, in choosing that word.

I also think you're jumping the gun horribly to even put up a poll at this point. None of these issues is urgent, and the only one that has had much recent discussion was the gold loan idea first proposed yesterday - and that's just had one day of discussion. It's a lot better to have a discussion thread for a while before putting up a poll when a matter is not urgent. That way (1) a poll is not needed if no one seems to like an idea, (2) ideas can be refined before being put up for a vote (e.g. is 50 really the right amount of gold for the loan?), and (3) people's votes are based on a greater amount of information and thought.

In regard to the specific proposals,

1) It wouldn't hurt to try it as long as the message is worded correctly, e.g. "If you find yourselves in urgent need of gold due to the crisis on your continent, we would be willing to offer you a loan."

2) A worker-for-gold deal is a technical impossibility as long as neither of us has a city on the other's continent. In any case, it tends to be rather difficult for worker-for-gold deals to be worthwhile because the fact that slaves work half as fast tends to make workers more valuable to their own civs. (Although actually, slaves aren't that bad for an industrious civ wanting to build a road network - they take three turns instead of two because native workers lose some on rounding.)

3) A 30-turn deal could make excellent sense.

4) Definitely sounds good if "close" can be defined in such a way as to keep RP off our part of the continent.

5) At this moment, I'm inclined to like the idea because knowing the size and shape of the big continent could be immensely valuable in determining how much land is necessary to be competitive in the long term. But I'm not voting yet because there are also good reasons why it might not be such a great idea. If we do go for it, we would want to include an agreement for each not to tell anyone else about portions of the minimap likely to end up within the others' sphere of influence. (Note: Minimaps give away very little that can't be determined by having a galley circumnavigate a land mass and, on the flip side, if someone has our minimap, it's a lot easy to argue, "You have no legitimate need to have a galley poking around our neighborhood.")

Nathan

[nbarclay]

By the way, in "worker for gold," you didn't make it clear whether we'd be offering to buy or to sell, nor did you say anything about what the price would be likely to be.

[DeepO]

Nathan, I started this poll because I just wanted to keep the conversation with RP going, so in that respect it is urgent. These are only proposals, nothing final, so the specifics could be discussed, on both sides.

Other thing: compassion may have been the wrong choice, what about sympathy? Just an expression that we care...

Worker for gold: can't we trade workers if we don't have a valid trade route? Never noticed that... in this case, there is no point in proposing it, of course.

3): NAP: there have been some talk with GK about a mobing NAP, one in which you take a 20 turn NAP, but which moves: each 10 turns it is renegotiated, so that if a deal stops, you still have a guaranteed 10 turns of peace. Also, each further deal (e.g. tech deal) automatically signs a 20 turn NAP. Again, only a proposal, where no specifics have been fully discussed yet.

4): There was some talk about having a limit on the closeness of settling: currently, if we prohibit settling within 5 tiles of an existing city, they can't build any cities on our part of the continent. Is somewhat related to a NAP.

5) Maybe needs to be discussed. Last time it came to the table, RP was the one fully rejecting it.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Both "compasison" and "sympathy" imply that they are in some kind of bad or unfortunate situation. We have no real indication that such is the case.

It may be that part of where we're at odds has to do with different concepts of what the word "proposal" means. In my view, a "proposal" is something pretty concrete, something that the person making the proposal has already made a pretty definite decision on. That's very different from just "an idea we're considering," which implies that we haven't made up our own minds yet. If you would take ideas that get a majority to RP just as ideas we're considering, and ask whether they think they would be interested if we decide we want to go ahead with those ideas, I would have no problem with that. Just please avoid the word "proposal" because I think that carries a stronger connotation of acceptance on our side than can be justified from a one-day poll with little or no preliminary discussion.

In regard to the slave trade, the rule is not "valid trade route." It's "must have cities on the same continent." I don't know that I've ever tested it, but that's what I've read enough times from strong enough sources to believe it's right.

Nathan

[Theseus]

I already voted, but I have an "other."

If Lux takes a swan dive, we need to make sure that GoW and ND get into the mother of all fastmover wars.

RP and GS could, umm, cooperate in making this happen.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I voted for loan and buy worker for gold. The cost wil decrease significantly if we build the Colossus.

[zeit]

I believe this is the right time to get RP and us closer- as i posted in the "War" thread, i think we might find RP more inclined to bond with us with things in the continent getting shaky. Out of the list DeepO's been making, i think we can start with a NAP as well as "no settling" thrown in, As a step in the right direction. an offer for a loan, when the need arises (like Nathan worded it) would also be nice.
Of course, we should come to them with a suggestion, not a proposal- and ask them to come to the table of negotiations (then we come with proposals), which can be done in a chat- i think this method of communication can help building friendship (if that's what we want to do).

[DeepO]

Zeit: I don't particularly like chats for this... sure, it's more informal, but as was pointed out above (again), I need to reread some text before sending it on diplomatic channels. Chats are too fast for this...

I agree on the suggestion part, though, I was only considering to start negotiating, but wanted a quick check of feelings by the rest of us.

DeepO

[alva]

Originally posted by Theseus
I already voted, but I have an "other."

If Lux takes a swan dive, we need to make sure that GoW and ND get into the mother of all fastmover wars.

RP and GS could, umm, cooperate in making this happen.

hmm, you mean RP and us paying GoW to go to War with ND? Not bad, but the thing is that we don't gain anything (except for some slowdown on the main continent).

There is some potential here though

[Shiber]

More than just slowdowns. ND could very well emerge as a superpower in the main continent as a result of this war, if GoW doesn't turn back on them.
In any case, the elimination of a civ (unless we're the ones eliminating them) always means bad news for us, since it tips off the balance of power. From our perspective, the more different forces are active on the main continent, the better.

[zeit]

I wouldn't say ND will become a super power- not with them taking on Lux's pitiful land area (as was reported) when Lux is using scorched earth defense. What i do see is both ND and RP, and maybe GoW, all growing stronger from the gap left open by Lux's approaching demise.

We might want to consider pitting ND and RP against each other- GoW doesn't seem strong enough, and the way they were dragged to this war, without any call and payment from ND (or so i believe- ND would not have needed their help anyway), and their temple building, does not suggest they are keen on real mercenary style gameplay, i think its just that GF and the rest want to make themselves the game's hot shot warriors, but the way GoW was dragged into this war suggest they are not very serious about their role as mercenaries.

I mean, look at how this war caught them- without even an average army compared to a non military focused (or at least not promoted as one), and with an average military compared to us lowly band of warriors and a spearman- is that a promising fighting clan- no!

RP, as a real candidate for supremecy might serve us better .By launching a combined attack on ND, an embargo or whatever, we can serve both teams' interests in the future, but first, before such things are even discussed- the bonds between us must be strengthened.