DIPLO: Proposal to RP

[Theseus]

zeit, I like the way you're thinking.

[DeepO]

Zeit, two comments:

Our defense is not that thin, I'm more surpised by NDs power (which would be greater then ours), then of GoW's power. We've got quite a nice collection of troops, this early in the game. 8 warriors and a spear, plus upgrade money for 1 sword (used to be 2) isn't bad, we could handle ND most likely. GoW is about the same, and if they didn't use chops so extensively like we did, they could never have build more then us. Their joining in on the war is indeed rather symbolic, but maybe they'll get a promotion or so out of it.

ND's power is big, but understandable. And, If Lux keeps disbanding what they can't defend, their power advantage will fade away. They maximally cashed in on their trait, expansionist, which has a very short lifespan: You can use it to gain research free, hopefully making money, possibly gain some warriors from huts, and once your advantage stops because there are no more huts to explore, use all the economic power you have in creating an army, attacking a neighbour, and gain the next advantage (more cities + territory) which should propell you into winning.
Only problem is that getting Lux cities won't be such a good deal for them, which will leave them with a rapidly thinning army, and no more trait to count on giving a difference. Industrial has certainly helped us so far, and it still does...

RP will have the same slowdown now that they used up their expansionist trait, but as they are not losing any on the war, and have nicer start terrain, they will likely become the biggest player on the continent. Which might be a good ally, but which also might be our closest competitor.

In any case, who said "keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer"? It doesn't really matter, we should certainly strengthen our diplomatic relations with RP in the near future

DeepO

[zeit]

DeepO- now that i think about it- what you're suggesting makes sense. And the bottom line is, as you said, to keep them closer, to us. Despite the geographical isolation, with an effort we can keep ourselves involved and influencial, and that will be a major dilemma which will travel without throughout this game- what to give a priority- a secluded and relatively safe investment in our economy/culture/military, or channeling resources towards increasing our influence on the mainland.

Some gap, both in game and out of game will be left when Lux's gone. I reffer to a psychological as well- seeing one team's demise will surely gear others towards doing something- so that they won't face the same fate. We can fit in that gap, and i see RP as a prime target.

[DeepO]

okay... the following message is ready to be sent to RP, if nobody objects to it soon (let's say within the next hour or so), I'll send it. I don't think many points will need to be discussed, but you never know...

Togas, Ninot,

We've been talking about possible trades with you on our forum, and while the discussion is still in full swing, allow me to ask for some input from you.

It's unfortunate that so few opportunities arise from the previous list you sent me, few items are of use to us, as many were already promised by other teams, for various prices (sometimes free). The only thing that could be urgent is contact with Lux, as if we don't get this soon, we might never say hello to them... but saying hi is hardly worth 25 gold

Future tech deals: This is where it becomes interesting. We are researching CoL, and when the time comes, we want to trade it to you. Please keep this information secret, it was said in confidentiality to you, and not meant to be briefed to third parties.

There are a couple of things we are still discussing, but we would be very interested to hear your views on it. We are aware that CoL is the most expensive tech to go for right now, and want to exploit that advantage to fullest degree. After all, our scientists and scribes are working hard to discover it, it would be a waste if us diplomats wouldn't be able to put that value to good use.

First question: would you be interested in a Non Disclosure Agreement? Such a NDA would mean that you are not allowed to trade our research away, while we won't trade your research to others. We are still discussing if we want that, but if you have outspoken oppinions, it would be good to keep those in mind.

Second: Can you fully commit to trade literature to us, in exchange of CoL? Maybe we need a bit compensation for the larger cost, so the price is under review, but the principle of being able to trade once both parties can put their end on the table is an important concept to agree on. I haven't heard any confirmation from your side that you consider Literature tradeable, so I just had to make sure.

Last future tech trade deal question: we maybe can get our hands on mathematics soon, would you be interested in acquiring it from us?

Now, on to other things. I can understand that upon meeting us, you were eager to sign a deal with us, not only to deprive others from dealing with us (and yes, we seem to be in high demand), but also because most likely the situation on the main continent makes a bit of extra cash more then welcome. If you find yourselves in urgent need of gold due to the crisis on your continent, we would be willing to offer you a loan. This offer will stand for as long as we can without comprimising our internal security, but details of course have to be discussed, and agreed upon by my team.

And, to avoid this kind of tension between us, we would be interested in a NAP (not with a 'fixed' end date, as that implies building tension towards the end of it, but in some way 'moving'), and in a 'don't settle too close to our borders' deal. Again, particulars are still under discussion, but would you be interested in such deals?

Kind regards,
DeepO of Gathering Storm.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Damn... in reviewing this thread, it seems I lost the full minimap deal. I'll add a paragraph, like

Now that we've met, would you be interested in a current minimap deal, under certain restrictions?

edit: when looking over the poll results again, I saw I offered to discuss NAP and 'no settle' deals, while the majority was against discussing it. Hmmm... will get it out my post, then.

DeepO

[Shiber]

I'd remove "(sometimes free)". RP may be suspecting that we have a share-everything deal with Vox, and I don't suppose we would want to give them any more clues.
Other than that it's excellent.

[DeepO]

True... (something free) will be removed.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Okay, on second thought, I'm going to let this message stay up here until lunch tomorrow. All comments are welcome.

I said I was going to remove the NAP and 'no settling' discussions from the post, but somehow it doesn't feel right. I think most of us agree that we need to tighten relations with RP (even if we would be planning on taking their lands first), so would you guys leave the discussion in? Of course, I don't intend to have anywhere near a proposal without support, but mentioning it could be good for us.

DeepO (off to bed)

[nbarclay]

(1) I also agree that the "sometimes free" needs to go. ("Free" isn't necessarily the right term anyhow, since what we get for "free" from Vox is really essentially part of our current partnership with Vox, which they are getting some significant benefits from too.)

(2) Vox is going to give us contact with Lux, so you can take the special mention of that out too.

(3) Map Making and Polytheism are both cost 12, while Code of Laws and Literature are cost 10. So Code of Laws is not exceptionally expensive by the standards of the current era, nor is it more expensive than Literature. (Currency and Construction are even more expensive, by the way, at 16 and 20, respectively.)

(4) With our deal in place with Vox, we are not in a position to sign a straight-up non-disclosure agreement. As I recall, though, we already mentioned the idea of bringing in a partner to research Philosophy, so we could offer to pass Philosophy on to them in exchange for their agreeing not to sell, trade, give, or otherwise pass on either Philosophy or Code of Laws to anyone else.

Please post your rewrite so we can give it another look-over before you send it. Sorry about all the metaphorical red ink.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Nathan:
1) true, will be done

2) I know, but wanted something to chat about. Not mentioning it would only make us look more secretive

3) Hmmm... messed up here. I thought CoL was going to be the most expensive of them all, and I wanted to avoid to give the idea we wanted just lit for CoL. As it stands, that wouldn't be a bad deal.

4) I considered that, however Vox has an NDA on HBR I thought, and they are not going to give it to us (at least, I wouldn't adivse them). It won't be a big problem if Vox has philosophy which they can trade to RP, at least not for Vox.
The most important reason I ask (I know I didn't menion it like this, but with good reason) is that I saw quite a bit discussion between RP, GoW and Lux about violated NDAs, talk about NDA, and things like that. I want to first of all hear their opinions on this, I guess RP is the one that has been pressuring the other teams for a NDA, but I need to make sure before we start negotations on that.

As to mentioning again we have another partner: Not yet. Last message I sent on the subject, I said we were looking for partners, so they know what we are aiming for (republic asap). Only if they ask directly, or a few turns before they finish lit should we tell them that Vox has been on a muttually exclusive research path with us. The longer we wait, the less RP knows.

Rewrite is coming soon (I will start on it, but need to give classes in half an hour)

DeepO

[nbarclay]

We have no guarantees that RP won't find someone else to trade to for Philosophy, which could leave Vox out in the cold if we sign a NDA. Similarly, RP might compare the values of the two techs and decide they don't want to make a straight trade. We can't sign an NDA with RP without putting ourselves in a position where we might be forced to violate one or the other of our agreements.

And keep in mind that however you view Vox's position with respect to GoW, they are in fact willing to give us HBR. So we have no excuse to trade for a tech and then refuse to pass it on to Vox if they want it.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Okay, how's this:

Togas, Ninot,

We've been talking about possible trades with you on our forum, and while the discussion is still in full swing, allow me to ask for some input from you.

It's unfortunate that so few opportunities arise from the previous list you sent me, few items are of use to us, as many were already promised by other teams, for various prices. The only thing that could be urgent is contact with Lux, as if we don't get this soon, we might never say hello to them... but saying hi is hardly worth 25 gold

Future tech deals: This is where it becomes interesting. We are researching CoL, and when the time comes, we want to trade it to you. Please keep this information secret, it was said in confidentiality to you, and not meant to be briefed to third parties.

There are a couple of things we are still discussing, but we would be very interested to hear your views on it.
First question: would you be interested in a Non Disclosure Agreement? Such a NDA would mean that you are not allowed to trade our research away, while we won't trade your research to others. We are still discussing if we want that, but if you have outspoken opinions, it would be good to keep those in mind.

Second: Can you fully commit to trade literature to us, in exchange of CoL? I haven't heard any confirmation from your side that you consider Literature tradeable, so I just had to make sure.

Last future tech trade deal question: we maybe can get our hands on mathematics soon, would you be interested in acquiring it from us?

I can understand that upon meeting us, you were eager to sign a deal with us, not only to deprive others from dealing with us (and yes, we seem to be in high demand), but also because most likely the situation on the main continent makes a bit of extra cash more then welcome. If you find yourselves in urgent need of gold due to the crisis, we would be willing to offer you a loan. This offer will stand for as long as we can without compromising our internal security, but details of course have to be discussed, and agreed upon by my team.

Kind regards,
DeepO of Gathering Storm.

Nathan, again, this is not a proposal, but just a msg to test where they stand. There's a big chance that we simply have to accept a NDA on literature, in which case we would be wise to get an NDA on CoL as well.

I agree on your concerns wrt Vox, but let them take care of their own diplomacy. If they can't trade philosophy for lit, it's their problem, not ours. We don't break any deal by not trading literature to them, if we already had a NDA (which could be a fact, not to be negotiated).

They might be willing to give us HBR, but as we know GoW asked for a NDA on that one, it would not be good to accept the deal, certainly not as Vox will think that if we ask for a NDA on e.g. CoL or republic, they can say "yeah, sure", and trade it onwards to whoever is interested. If they offer HBR, we should decline.

DeepO

[zeit]

I don't quite understand- If we get a tech- and Vox, for some reason, doesn't get that, because they fail to come with good proposal or whatever- we are still bound by our tech sharing pact. I think it goes against the codex we are suggesting, and although Vox might have tricked us into not accepting HBR by "mentioning" their NDA with GoW, it does in fact looks like they're willing to cross GoW in order to respect our deal. We, however, are not willing to count on Vox not to accept the tech, nor we are willing to risk the reputation hit should this be known to RP. We can offer this without the NDA, then if RP raise the issue (of NDA), we try to talk Vox into agreeing on a very specific exception (literature), and perhaps some compensation.

[nbarclay]

DeepO, the way you have things worded now, if I were RP, I would get the impression that Gathering Storm is fairly strongly inclined to favor the idea of a NDA. Your tone - "Would you be interested in...?" - and the fact that you point to what would be perceived as the advantages of a NDA rather than to the possible disadvantages, both give a strong impression in that direction.

I really think we're better off not bringing up the subject ourselves and hoping RP doesn't. It was GoW, not RP, that attached the NDA to the deal with Vox, so I'm not seeing what you're seeing that makes you think RP is likely to insist on a NDA. Also, a post copied to our forum from the intersite forum sounded like RP does not look entirely unfavorably on the prospect of reselling someone else's research.

But if you're convinced enough that RP will want a NDA that you think we need to address the issue now, your wording needs to sound more like it's something we don't want. For example, "Some of the things we have heard give the impression that you may insist on non-disclosure agreements accompanying trades. We would like to verify whether or not that is the case." (No, I haven't taken the time to look for the best diplomatic wording, but an approach more along those lines would avoid giving RP the mistaken impression that we look favorably on the idea of a NDA.)

Or if we want to discuss the possibility of some sort of limited NDA or three-way deal with a NDA attached, that would be workable. But you sound like you don't want to reveal as much information as would be necessary to make that type of deal work.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

DeepO, our deal with Vox would have no purpose for its existence if it were not for the inclusion of techs gathered from other teams. There can be no real doubt that such techs are included in our agreement, and that fact is a significnat part of why Vox is willing to give us Horseback Riding: they view their commitment to us as superceding the more dubious "commitment" GoW tried to thrust on them against their will (and using a rather underhanded manipulation of the game's mechanics to circumvent the negotiation process).

If another team tries to force a NDA on us, we'll have to deal with the situation when the time comes. But I see no possible excuse by which we could rationalize willfully soliciting a NDA without its constituting a flagrant violation of our treaty obligations to Vox.

Nathan