DIPLO: GoW comments

[alva]

I agree with the consencus here that GF's note was bull, he used similar tactics with regards to the luxian situation.
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Now if we just could get paid to take out Vox
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(strangely enough, some part of me is actually saidened by the fact, that Vox will be gone soon...,no, really, I mean it... )

[asleepathewheel]

Does the new war change the agreement we are seeking currently with Vox?

Personally, I think we should wack them ASAP.

And Aeson is correct, we wont take a diplo hit if we break this treaty and attack vox soon.

We need to take out Vox before the Bobian civs can. We mustn't allow them to gain a foot hold in our land.

Perhaps we should make a treaty with GoW or someone, exchanging their gains on our continent for a defensive alliance and gold.

[alva]

nm, wrong thread.

[FrustratedPoet]

I agree with the general opinion that Vox is doomed to destruction whether we declare war on them or not. For this reason, we should declare war. I'd rather have Vox's territory in GS hands than in the possession of ND, or especially GoW.

We're not ready just yet, of course, and would need a few turns to get ready. I don't think we'll have much time....

[Aeson]

ND can't realistically cross the straights for some time. They may not have a coastal city yet, and if they do it is almost surely corrupt or on the W edge of BOB.

GoW by themselves would have a tough time taking out N Vox... remember they don't have Iron, and it's hilly up there. Also their coastal cities are pretty far away as well. Horses (landed from ships) vs Immortals in hills would be a slaughter in favor of Vox.

The unknown is RP, but they seem more like they'd let GoW and ND do the fighting.

If Vox does have 6 Immortals like Jon hinted at, they could hold out for quite some time on BOB. With Spear support, Horses aren't too scary for them, and if they just sit in their city they get first shots at any approaching Sword stacks. I wouldn't want to walk my Swords up to a city with 6 Immortals in it... likely to lose the whole stack.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
We're not ready just yet, of course, and would need a few turns to get ready. I don't think we'll have much time....

A few turns? We don't even have full garrisons yet. Let alone any kind of advantage in strength vs Vox.

[FrustratedPoet]

That's the traditional British understatement in operation there.

[nbarclay]

War Chariots upgrade directly to knights, not to horsemen. We need to be prepared with workers and swordsmen/horsemen in case Vox manages to pillage the road when they see our troops coming.

If we go after Vox at all, I don't want to do it with anything short of overwhelming force. By the time we have the makings of overwhelming force (and I would regard additional vet warriors for upgrade to swordsmen as a key ingredient), we should know whether the Bobians are going to attack Vox in the near term.

[Aeson]

Forgot about WC's.

Our first strike capability comes close enough to the Pyramids build that the upgrade to Horsemen would just be a waste anyways. We can have 2 Horsemen, 4 WC's, and up to 9 Swordsmen (likely want to only send 4 initially) in 14 turns, with the Pyramids finishing in 16. The 6 'fast units' almost certainly would be able to take Dissidentville. I would be very suprised if they have built another Spear there yet (they haven't had the city for 20 turns since Lux left, right?), and we haven't seen any troops moving S... so they very well may only have that one Spear.

Building the road and city as I did in the scenario will allow us to hide our troops until the turn of the attack. By that point it should be more obvious what constitutes overwhelming force... they may have most of their units trying to hold onto their BOB foothold. My initial reaction was just to try and figure out our earliest possible offensive, if Vox starts losing badlyand we need to rush to claim some land. RP could do it perhaps, can't see GoW beating us to the punch, certainly not ND.

[zeit]

We need some discussion on the ideas Hote raised on his last message:

1) One-sided (Ha Ha Ha!) Protection Pact against Vox- they can't be serious, we'll make war on our own terms.

2) Tech alliance with GoW? worth discussing IMO.

3) Loan shark- as the above. We can't commit on any given sum, but we can still discuss the interest and so forth.

4) Trading Iron- will require quite an investment from us (harbors, galley for finding a path), and we'll need some compensation- any ideas?

Please comment.

[DeepO]

1) No thank you, however explore the options here. I am interested in getting a secret GoW pact, in which they pay us for protection against Vox (not ND). I wonder how much they'll give.

As to a common pact against Vox: maybe mention that we're not interested in a pact against Vox for the simple reason that in the event of a war, we do not want to avoid any other team to conquer a city on our continent. In fact, it may be even so that we will protect Vox from outside attacks when they are getting hammered by us, protection that would be diplomatically at first, but might turn militaristic real fast.

2) first of all, tell them that "alliance" might be too strongly put when it comes to our deal with Vox, even if it just concerns tech. I was sorry to see that term spilled in chat, but by downtoning it, everything could be solved again.
Further, tech deals with GoW certainly interest us, specifally if we could strike gold for tech, or tech for tech deals. We assume GoW's research potential is smaller then ours, legos, and RPs (because of the relative isolation fo those 3 civs), which means that GoW researching themselves might not be their best option, as they would always be last to discover something (there are only 3 possible tech paths at most times in the middle ages). Gold certainly is a good compensation for us.

3) Loans: yes we are still interested, also in the form of virtual loans: we give them tech, for which they don't pay a fixed price, but rather a downpayment for 20 or so turns. Ask about what they would see as good rates, and how much gold they would be wanting to loan from us, as a guideline of how much we'd save. Also tell them that these are of course depending on situation, and that all loans should be asked well in front, to avoid us spending our treasury on something else or planning to spend it next turn.

4) Indeed, mention the cost, but also mention that it will be possible, and we would be willing to be the suppliers for GoW.

DeepO

[Shiber]

1) Actually, I think this is beautiful. We wish to go to war with Vox anyway, so we might as well get paid for it. If and when Vox decides to attack GoW, it'll be high time for us to attack them from the south, while most of their forces are on Bob, and if we can get GoW to pay us in exchange for a commitment to strike at Vox should they attack GoW, which is something we are going to do anyway, then why refuse?

2) According to Ixnay's maps, GoW has lots of rivers, which means a good research speed. So yes, #2 is worth considering.

3) Agreed. I suggest that we propose a low interest, since we want GoW to feel that we're being fair with them; the fact that they used the expression 'loan shark' would imply that they think they are going to be ripped off and are inclined against such a deal, and we want to change their minds.

4) True, some investment would be needed, but IMHO the profits would exceed the investments. Plus, we're going to have to build a harbor anyway, so we might as well be compensated for the investment.

[DeepO]

2) it's not the commerce that is the problem, but GoW needs to save a lot more cash, and so can't put their slider to 100% tech like we have been doing. We still don't need the cash, so if we can just make a bit of money from tech deals, and get some gpt deals to pay with maintenance, they can't possibly surpass us.

3) No... ask them for a deal, before proposing something ourselves. Interest rates will depend on amount of money asked, and risk involved, no need to give them one idea now, and later on have to revoke it

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Regarding 2), I think we and Lego need to discuss a joint research and tech sales policy. Including GoW as a third partner could be useful, but might be dangerous if Riders sweep over Bob before ND and RP are ready to deal with them.

Regarding 1), I'd rather keep our options open if practical. And a lot depends on what happens in our negotiations with Lego. If Lego is interested in dragging Vox along to contribute what gold they can to help Lego's and our research, letting Vox live at least a while longer might remain profitable. (And we won't look nearly as scary to the Bobians if we don't own the whole of Estonia.) But if Lego wants us to accept being able to sell techs to Vox as something of roughly equal value with their being able to trade techs to someone else, Vox becomes a liability. In any case, I don't want to make any kind of commitment that could hurt our standing with Vox until we're sure we're better off taking them out.

Regarding 3), I think that's something that should be discussed in light of the situation that exists when the time comes. We may or may not be in a position where we feel like we have gold to spare.

Regarding 4), we might feel out GoW's luxury situation (and also RP's and ND's). If a harbor would let us do some major luxury trading, that would make it more worthwhile for us to make a harbor a high priority than if we do it solely to sell iron to GoW. I'm not quite sure what a fair price would be selling iron to GoW, but it's likely to be higher if we have to significantly accelerate building a harbor compared with what would make sense otherwise.

[DeepO]

4): I was thinking on letting them pay half a harbor + galley as guarantee the deal will be possible, afterwards e.g. 1 lux for iron for 20 turns. What is iron going to be worth to GoW anyway?

3) true, but we can still ask what they were thinking about, it will create a friendlier image of us

Vox - Lego... it will become a problem. We should discuss this with lego, however we need to do it in a way that we don't give a lot of info.... not that easy

DeepO