Are we playing too conservatively?

[Shiber]

#4 is 6,3 of Cyclone. It will have a wheat, some shielded grassland (4, 1 in the city square) and a forest to work with.

[alva]

Personally, I don't mind the emphasis beeing on economics so far, I don't see anyone trying to mess with us for a while.

[Shiber]

I have to agree. We are not under any real threat. Vox will not attack because they are still weak, and their military advisor and power histograph will tell them that we are clearly stronger. I don't expect any galleys from the mainland loaded with mil. units - they've got enough problems of their own, and they know that such a method of attack is not effective at this point.
In any case, if something does turns up, we can always upgrade our warriors and meet with the opposition before they arrive to our cities, thanks to our roads and our early warning. In the mean time, we can lay back, build another warrior/spearman from time to time and concentrate on growth and commerce.

[DeepO]

Yep, another pacifist here... while military is undoubtably one of the most important aspects in MP, it is not yet our biggest concern. If we are building a settler in EotS now (and it sure looks that way ), it can settle #4, and let's make that into a barracks city. As we already have one barracks up for emergencies, another ready in 9 or 12 turns (depending on the level of corruption in Bolderberg, could also change depending on which tiles we use (extra growth or not)), IMHO making #4 our next barracks city should be enough for the moment. I would rather have Tempest building a library instead, it is going to be our 3rd commerce city for a while, better to exploit that advantage some more.

We're already half capable of attacking Vox (not defending against, even attacking), and the others are at least 25 turns from reaching us with a galley, if they prebuild one and let it head straight down. I doubt we'll see this kind of focus given the tense situation on the mainland.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Conqueror
I feel bit the same way that Theseus in his "Is it just me" thread a while back. It seems like few big guns (for example DeepO & nbarclay - "We must build GL in Hurricane") are deciding all the actions. Even if we hold a poll and the result is not good in their opinion - hmm another poll on same subject comes up, or third, if the masses still dont agree.

I myself have almost stopped posting here since it makes no difference what we small guys say, i'll just play the PBEM games quietly. I still read most of the threads and suffer quietly.

Haa - very agitating post - but propably a wasted one anyway.

Conqueror, I was saddened by your post, because it proofs that our team is not working optimally yet. Sir Ralph and Nathan have said very true things, most importantly the message that if you don't post your concerns, the team will have lost valuable input, and balance.

I do not want to decide any actions, on the contrary, I consider any option good, as long as it has a support from the majority. I'm sure we can have a fun game any way we chose. Of course, I'm campaigning from time to time for things I would like most, or things I consider a good way to follow, but that doesn't mean I'm not taking your views in consideration, quite on the contrary. Of course, you need to voice them, I'm no telepath.

What the importance of the big 'posters' (not 'guns', next thing you'll say 'hitters' ) is concerned: both Nathan and myself act from a scholia, Nathan is chief econ, and one of the most important ambassadors (which takes a huge amount of time, BTW), and I'm a member of the diplo scholia, and twice ambassador too. We're not part of the Spartan Academy, nor do we decide on Spartan things (we sometimes advise if nobody else is available), this is an area that has been underrepresented in the post count. This doesn't mean that that scholia or its members have anything less to say in our team, on the contrary even, every post of Theseus, Arrian, asleep, nye or any other of the 'smaller' posters is carefully analysed, as it is the only input we have. Be more active, and the game will certainly shift more towards your view, I'm sure. Not posting denies us the balance we'll need to win.

DeepO

[Aeson]

The biggest concern I have is if Vox has ever had a Warrior at 8,8 from Hurricane? How far south did their explorers get? It would take us 5 turns to hook up Iron from our current setup, and we only have 3 turn warning along the eastern seaboard where our Iron source and potential wonder city are located once Map Making is available. In our current state, 2 Immortals landing on or next to the Iron could do us a huge amount of damage. With 3 turn warning we wouldn't be able to save our wonder build and the city and may very well lose both along with our Iron resource.

I don't think Vox has had that view (can't tell for sure from what I've read), and they probably don't guess the sorry state of our military. If they do see our Iron though, it may be their best chance to turn things around and so should be planned for. In their shoes I would send the galley with Immortals, and if it did look good (like how it looks now), land them. If we looked prepared (say the Iron already hooked up, or a Spearman on it and in the city), just say 'oh, we're looking for crossings' knowing the units on board aren't visable.

Also, we should explore the coast of the west desert. We shouldn't assume that there won't be a galley crossing there until we explore along the shore and check the sea merges into ocean and not coast. We have two Warriors in the area doing nothing important, let them go on vacation to the beach for a turn... A crossing there could make a lot of difference both offensively and defensively, as well as possibly from an expansion viewpoint.

[DeepO]

Aeson, I just send you the last turn (2630 BC)before we convinced Vox that we didn't want them to proceed any further. at that time, one warrior was 8887 from Hurricane, the other was 33 from the whale on the West coast. He came from the mountains, so saw a little further.

Vox has been given a description of our lands, which was rough, but still quite accurate. It should be in the Diplo Log...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Another point is whether Vox knows our iron source... we told them of our second source, but I'm not sure if Nathan said were it was exactly (don't think so, but can't say for sure)

West coast exploring: good plan. These kind of recommendations are best given in the turn threads, where the scholia head or Sir Ralph can edit them into the first posts. We had lost suggestions before, but this system seems to work

DeepO

[nbarclay]

These discussions have a large element of debate (usually in the good sense of the word) to them, and there are three vital keys to effective participation in a debate.

1) Fully understand your own position. For example, if you're afraid we won't be adequately prepared for an attack by immortals, find a specific strategy Vox could use that we could not adequately respond to. The more specific you can get, the more persuasive you are likely to be.

2) Fully understand "the other side's" position. Think of how you would argue the case if you were on the other side, and that will help you figure out where the strengths and weaknesses in your own position are.

3) Don't give up just because "the other side" isn't convinced right away. Keep looking at why the other side isn't being convinced, and try to find whatever it is that they might not be seeing that might convince them if they did see it. (And at the same time, of course, consider the possibility that they might be right.)

Of course there are times when no amount of debate can find THE right answer because which answer is correct is a matter of subjective priorities. Sometimes it comes down to things like how much risk a person is willing to accept for a possible future advantage. But a lot of the time, as the two sides come to understand each other's viewpoints and underlying priorities better, a workable consensus can be found.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO
Another point is whether Vox knows our iron source... we told them of our second source, but I'm not sure if Nathan said were it was exactly (don't think so, but can't say for sure)

What I said was along the lines of, "We have another source of iron in a place you haven't seen yet." I wasn't about to paint any bullseyes for them.

Still, the idea that we need to have a decent defense in the area when Vox gets galleys is a good one. We probably ought to plan on a vet spearman in every coastal city by that point since when you see a vet spearman in a city, there's no telling what kind of stack might be hiding under him. We may need to build some more spearmen in Hurricane before putting it on a wonder after all, as much as I dislike the delay.

Edit: Another thought is to post regular warriors as lookouts where we can see Voxian galleys as far in advance as possible. That would let us stretch a smaller response force a little farther.

[DeepO]

Nathan, I think we've got lookouts as close as would be acceptable to Vox: Grog is still looking after our longest coast (also spotting Lux, and other mainland galleys). The warrior on the East is as close as he can get, and will certainly spot a galley if it approaches too. We can't move him up, without at least asking it from Vox...

Maybe we should push for a kind of non-aggression treaty with RPG for the moment, or at least one in which we declare that settling to close to the other party is considered an act of war. If we prohibit settling 5 tiles from an existing city, they won't be able to settle any of our future city sites. Of course, it does mean we would promise the same to them, so maybe we shouldn't jump into the void here...

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I guess I should have checked the map before I posted.

[Aeson]

We currently have 3 turns warning for galley's on the east coast, and 5+ on the west side (assuming there are no galley crossings by the west desert). A Spear at each side and 2 more centrally located would be nice. Also I think a few WC's or hooking up our Iron is in order. We need some offensive capacity.

Our Warriors could be used to block the good landing sites in the case we saw someone coming either way.

[Shiber]

The cost of an invasion by a civ from the mainland is just too great. Galleys aren't such good vessels when it comes to warring - they can only move 3 tiles per turn and end turns in coastal tiles, which means that they have a long route to take, and they travel it considerably slowly. Furthermore, their low cargo hold makes them ineffective for serious invasions.
If a civ from the mainland decides to invade, they will need a large number of galleys to offload many units in the first wave. They can't use a few galleys to send units in small waves because by the time their galleys make the trips back and forth and return with another wave, the previous wave will already have been eliminated. They need to attack with overwhelming force, and for that they need many galleys. In order to send waves of 8 units each, they'll need 4 galleys - a total investment of 120 shields, or 4 swordsmen. Not cheap.
A naval invasion at this point in the game is very inefficient. Launching a wave of 6 swordsmen costs 180 shields, plus 90 for the galleys - a total of 270 shields. To deal effectively with 6 swordsmen, we'd need 8 or so spearmen, which cost 160 shields. The civs on the mainland will realize that we can counter their invasion with 40% less investment in shields and will not attempt this, knowing that such a plan is almost surely bound to fail.

To sum up, with so much trouble in their own continent, I doubt that any civ will risk committing to a naval invasion of our island. If any of them will be foolish enough to actually try this, they will probably stop after the first wave, when they realize that they can't continue supporting such an inefficient war.

[notyoueither]

Contingencies?

I don't think that empty cities allows for us to exercise any effective contingencies. We do not even have adequate garrisons should some team do something completely unexpected, and one city with Barracks will be a long time building the Spear for all the cities.

If someone did something unexpected, which is likely, then we would be scrambling to build garrisons, let alone offensive forces. At the very least we should keep production of veteran Spear at the level of the number of settlers. To do this would mean building another Barracks post haste. Tempest would be fine. If our production of Spear begins to outstrip the number of settlers then Tempest could pop out the odd Worker.

In my view, the key to MP is balance. When one goes too hard on either the builder or the war monger, then unfortunate consequences follow all too often. 2 Settler pumps, one Worker farm, and only 1 Barracks is unbalanced IMO.