Does the Great Library still make sense?

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO
One last comment, in case we have a trustful, long term relation with any team at the moment the GL wears out, we can still get a considerable advantage out of it if the other team is willing to not research are acquire education for a while. We could e.g. focus on one path, and after 30 or 40 turns offer our city to our ally for 1 turn, at which point he will get all current techs known to 2 teams. If we play it right, that team will thus be able to stockpile gold, which they later can share with

Yet another plan that only works if we commit to being a tech follower rather than a tech leader. If we're the one with the most techs, we have nothing to gain by seizing the Great Library or arranging for a partner to do so and pass us the techs.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by DeepO
Shiber, that won't be possible right now, it's much too early for that. If a war does break out on the main continent, tech rates are going to drop extremely, the middle age could be far away. We're very decent research wise, but we can only discover techs in 10 or more turns even after we build libraries, and if nobody is doing the same the Sistine Chapel can be many centuries away.

I'm fully aware of that. I suggested that we prepare for building the Sistine Chapel, not begin to prebuild it already.
If we choose Hurricane as our wonder city, I suggest that we improve the terrain around it for production, while increasing the population in Hurricane, so that when it's time to start stockpiling shields, we'll have a real wonder city ready for the job.

[nbarclay]

Longer-term, EotS and Cyclone are our two top wonder cities. The time will come when Hurricane needs to move most of its workforce to coast and sea tiles. Edit: and Tempest, probably more so than either of the others, with all the hills it can work.

[Shiber]

I agree. IMHO we need to start drafting plans for a wonder city, or even two, if we want to get Leo's Workshop or JS Bach's as well as the Chapel*.

* I may be working with a false assumption here, but I think that the Sistine Chapel is the best wonder of the medieval age if your civ is not on the mainland.

[nbarclay]

I'm in love with Leo's for cheap upgrades to cavalry. Sistine and Bach's are a lot less valuable on lower levels where happiness is less of an issue. Just a temple, cathedral, and the two luxuries on our home continent would support size 10 with no happiness problems. Add a marketplace and an imported lux, or two imported luxes without a marketplace, and size 12 is fine. So there's not really that much need for Sistine (which doesn't even kick in until you have a cathedral), and Bach's is of relatively limited value as well.

[DeepO]

Bah, we could get both Leo's and Sistine in Hurricane after we used it once already for a wonder. True, there might be other locations god for wonderbuilding, Cyclone certainly, but EotS will not make a good city because we can't prebuild there as long a palace there. In comparison, Hurricane can use more shields at size 12 than EotS can, so as long as EotS doesn't need the tiles, I would rather have them go to Hurricane (wonder or not).

As to being a tech follower: maybe. But I doubt it will be far behind, and I doubt that we don't find a good way of securing a tech lead immediately after education. Having lots of cash to spend on upgrades or rushes certainly helps...

DeepO

[zeit]

If someone gets the GL - we try to pull a "anti-GL" alliance with one or two teams-like the one we hated to think about when we were more enthusiastic regarding the GL project. We won't have to deviate that badly if someone helps us, we can gain diplomatic support for this venture quite easily- there has to be someone who won't benefit from any GL tech trade deals - and we'll find him/them. I don't see the fact that someone will get the GL as a good case in this argument, because we are primarily talking about the benefits against the costs for us, and i don't see how we differ from anyone else in the cost of GL falling into someone else's hands- i'd say it falls into the "global cost" of slowing worldwide research (exceot maybe a beeline towards education...)

As for an alliance with Vox- first i'll have to say something about the fun in the game- straying for a moment from in game "how to win calculations" personally, i see no fun in allying with Vox- on the contrary, it will be a pain in the ass "do this and do that" and "how many times i have to tell you not to...(insert your in-game folly here)", i'd rather focus on plotting schemes of war-mongering in the mainland or something...

Now for in-game arguments: we really don't need Vox as an ally- they are a liabilty- they will slow us down if we tie ourselves to them, and i don't want to be responsible for this team's action.
A combined assault on the mainland with them having a bigger share on the Luxian lands will give them a foothold- not us, where will we place the palace then?

Vox will be a very easy target, if they keep on playing as they do, and if we keep them off guard- it will be quick and painless (for us, that is... ), so there it won't be an overkill- just a quick and (fairly) easy one.
If we find an unsettled isle by then we can make a palace relocation then, and make some purely destructive assaults on the mainland, to make sure our supremecy is assured- our coast will be relatively easy to defend, and the mainland's one will be pretty vulnerable (the Vikings' UU could have been useful...)

If we make it to the GL despite our conservative investment, then we can avoid the overkill, leave Vox alone (not before trying to squeeze money for the techs), and focus on a mainland fall scale invasion- i wouldn't want to share our land grab with Vox, but maybe some deal (like X gold for every Immortal or something) can be arranged without further commitment, if not, then- tough luck, we'll just have to do it ourselves...


I think some really good arguments are hurled around in this thread- i wonder how long will the upcoming "winning" strategy of this debate would last, given the dynamic nature of the game.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Colossus is better then GL i think because it lasts longer and gives us more flexibility. The GL only gives us techs, which we will then need to trade to other civs (assuming that they dont already have it) Colossus gives us money, which we can funnel into techs, army, or city improvments. And it costs only 200 shields.

[Arrian]

LoA.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

If going for the Collosus, I would especially get its size up quickly, and keep it high. A city with a river and the collosus is better then 2 small cities of half its size...

DeepO

[nbarclay]

If we go for the Colossus in Hurricane, we may want to pump up its size and take a shot at another wonder shortly after if the F7 screen doesn't look like there's a lot of competition for wonders. (A library and marketplace first might not be bad ideas, though, considering how those complement the Colossus.)

In regard to an absence of prebuild possibilities in EotS, once we get Mysticism and until someone builds it in a cascade for lack of anything better to do, the Oracle is likely to be available as a prebuild. It's hard to imagine a human player targeting it deliberately! Another oddball trick would be to use a palace as a prebuild for the Forbidden Palace wherever we decide to put that and use the Forbidden Palace as a prebuild in EotS. Of course we'd have to be extremely careful with the timing if we'd try that trick.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Nathan, FPs can't be built in cities that have the palace allready... I tried it numerous times

It seems there isn't enough support anymore for the GL, do we need to poll for its existence or not? And if we definately are changing the direction Hurricane is going, do we need to start discussing what to do with it instead?

For me, the choice is rather clear: I would like it if we still make it a supersized city, and prebuild another wonder there. The Collosus sounds good, but the Lighthouse is fine as well. (and the GL is better )

DeepO

[nbarclay]

My real objection is less to the Great Library (after all, we chould change wonder targets if we decide something else would be better) than to adding a bunch of workers to Hurricane now at the expense of our REXing. I could probably go for a plan for two more settlers from EotS, then three workers, then a chop-assisted settler, and then having EotS focus on workers for a while (assuming we get decent luck with disease for a change). By the time we get a couple settlers from EotS, Cyclone should be almost ready to go online as a settler pump, so there wouldn't be a major delay in founding the cities closer to home. But the idea of having EotS crank out a bunch of workers now and then waste growth building settlers later when it is production-constrained rather than food-constrained doesn't thrill me - especially when there are a couple sites with wheat fairly close to our capital waiting for settlers.

Edit: Looking back, if we make proper use of Hurricane's worker, he can get to the last fur forest and chop it a little sooner, so there wouldn't need to be as many workers between the second and third settlers (I think just one, maybe two, assuming he improves the tiles along his way).


Nathan

[Aeson]

I even think the pyramids could be more usefull, even from a denial point of view.
If someone on the "main" continent is able to get his hands on it, is likely to become the most powerfull civ on it.

We are going to have 14 initial cities right? As of now we have 1? Granary. 13 x 60 = 780 shields. The Pyramids cost 400. 14gpt + 19 WC's. Not that we'd build a Granary in every city normally, but the benefit is still there.

The problem is timing the build so that we are in a Republic and have most of our cities founded by the time it is finished. I think we should build one settler from Hurricane before starting though, as judging from the world's top cities list, no one is making a major play for a wonder yet.

With Chieftain settings, 2 luxuries, a Republic GA, and the Pyramids we could really pop/infrastructure boom to set ourselves up for a good Middle Ages.

[Dominae]

Edit: Wow, it's 2am here and I just realised my first post makes almost no sense. Here's the gist of what I think I'm trying to say:

For maximum benefit from our GA, we need big cities. So the early-growth (size 1-5) Food bonus from Granaries is downplayed. Now, the growth in size 6+ cities will be useful as well, no doubt. But like you said we would probably want to produce Granaries in those cities anyway to help earlier growth, and pump out Settlers/Workers.

If only the Pyramids did not trigger our GA!


Dominae