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Does the Great Library still make sense?

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  • #46
    Yes, our GA will be less than it would be later.

    The Pyramids + GA + Republic has a synergy to it that really speeds everything up though, and the advances made in population growth still pay off after the GA is finished.

    With the Pyramids we should be able to have about half again the population we normally would have going into the Middle Ages. With 14 cities in a Republic (Chieftain?/Standard), that's like having half a GA effect on overall production and commerce without the GA.

    I think the advantages to the Pyramids outweigh those for any other Ancient Era wonder in our situation. The free Granaries give more gpt advantage than the Collossus would up until Hospitals at least.

    How many turns are we from the Republic? We get Writing next turn, and have Code of Laws + Republic to research. I think someone mentioned it would take 30 turns to research Republic at our current capacity, so CoD being 10/28ths of that would take roughly 10 turns. That gives 42 turns (probably a bit less if we're done with the disease) before we can be in a Republic.

    It sounds like the timing will be able to be worked out well. We shouldn't be afraid of a GA while in a Republic. The advantages early in a game tend to compound, and so even though it's less advantage directly, indirectly it can be as much or more than if we wait.

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    • #47
      Fifteen cities, but we'll have a second granary online in Cyclone long before the Pyramids would be finished. So the Pyramids would give us thirteen.

      Actually, I view the advantage of the Pyramids as more than just the 380 net shields savings because some of the granaries would come in cities that are good at generating commerce but not so good with shields. The Pyramids provide a way to build in a high-shield city and have the benefit go to cities that generate fewer shields, freeing those cities to focus their efforts elsewhere.

      Aeson, how would you tell from the list of top cities whether someone's making a major play for a wonder? If they're doing it in their capital, their capital would obviously keep growing instead of shrinking from settler or worker production every now and then. (Of course disease could still shrink the capital along the way, if anyone else has any in their capital.) But a city other than a capital wouldn't bump a capital from the list just because it's in the middle of working on a wonder, would it?

      Nathan

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      • #48
        Keep in mind that the benefits of the Colossus are in raw commerce subject to multiplicative benefits of libraries, marketplaces, etc., while those of the Pyramids are in terms of after-multipliers gold. So the Colossus would provide a little more financial benefit than the Pyramids, but not a huge amount more.

        In terms of timing, I anticipate that Vox's research of Philosophy, not ours of Code of Laws, will be the bottleneck. On the other hand, as long as the bottleneck doesn't force us to stockpile more gold than we'll spend on our city improvements along the way, that won't really slow us down in terms of when we actually get Republic.

        Nathan

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        • #49
          You're right about the top cities. I never noticed that population played such a little role in what city gets listed until I tested it just now. As for the Colossus, Marketplaces, Libraries, ect. will also work on the added commerce from pop points. Those improvements will also be built sooner in most cities with the free Granary than without.

          Is Vox really that hard up on commerce? Philosophy is only 60% the cost of Code of Laws.

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          • #50
            Recently, they were estimating 20 turns for Mathematics, which is cost 8. Vox doesn't have a river, so they're on the low side of commerce, while we have a river, a capital that tends toward large sizes when it isn't plagued by disase, some furs (Vox just has a single instance of one luxury), and, most recently, a city sitting on top of a gold hill. We also have either one or two more cities than they do, depending on whether they built a fourth city where we can't see it.

            I will say, though, that I've been misremembering the cost of Philosophy as 7 rather than 6, so the risk of our being delayed significantly isn't what I was afraid it might be.

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            • #51
              Does the research cost default to Chieftain level for the player in MP?

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              • #52
                Unfortunately, the game seems to be entirely on Chieftain, including happiness and most likely research too, due to a bug in the loading procedure.

                EDIT: How can we check this? All we know at this point is, that 1 research point costs exactly 24 beakers.

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                • #53
                  If I remember how score works correctly, it looks like score is behaving as would be expected for Regent level - a score of 30 for 9 tiles and 1 content citizen for civs that founded their capital on the first turn.

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                  • #54
                    Nathan, if you have a link to a score calculation thread, I'm interested.

                    Pyramids: strange that after a while, all discussions pass the starting point again, the first ever idea for Hurricane was to let it build the Pyramids... I think it's certainly a nice thing to go for, but am a bit worried that if we are first of all going to build a settler from Hurricane, we will never get anywhere close to being first to get it. I still think we should aim to supersize Hurricane, instead of limiting it's growth... the two pumps should be enough to get our settlers fast enough, without disease EotS can get to 5 turns per settler, Cyclone can get to 4 turns per settler, that should mean that we can more or less build the 15 cities before the Pyramids are completed. (we've got 5 already)

                    Timing: we're going to need some 40 turns to build the pyramids if we add workers, which, if Vox can get to Philosophy, should be enough for us to reach Republic. Indeed, I said it currently takes about 30 turns for republic, because we were making some 17(?) research, and needed 28*24 beakers. Of course, this will get better over time, as cities will grow, and others will be founded, so we should be able to get to republic well within 40 turns, even if there are a couple of turns delay from Vox. And, if we somehow would be 1 turn late, it won't be ideal, but not that bad either, we're religious after all.

                    Re: other cities building wonders: we could check on the F7 screen if other capitals are prebuilding, but can't see other cities (not on the F11 anyway). I think it's better to judge the diplomatic situation of other teams, to see if there is a risk for wonderbuilding. As far as I can see, there are only 2 other teams in a position to build, first of all legoland, as they are completely isolated, second RPG as they are neutral. The other teams have other things to focus on...

                    BTW: Vox has settled its fourth city, if I see the power graph.

                    DeepO

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                    • #55
                      We could 'trade' the GL for Pyramids with RP...

                      This would increase the likelyhood of getting it.
                      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
                      Then why call him God? - Epicurus

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                      • #56
                        I've been thinking about the Colossus recently, and though I'm still not convinced it is a good choice in comparison to the GL or Pyramids, it does have something going for it. Since we're playing on Chieftain, the reduced cost of techs means that the Commerce generated by the Colossus is that much more useful for gaining techs, discounting the effect of free techs gained by the GL (which cost less due to difficulty). Whether this difference is significant compared to Emperor difficulty, I'm not sure.


                        Dominae
                        And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                        • #57
                          Re: Pyramids or GL <--> Colossus:
                          I think all options have their advantages, but need long term planning to get most out of it. We shouldn't wait too long before deciding, so we can also adjust our diplomatic objectives.
                          Apart from diplomatic relation, I feel the most important point on deciding which to go for is the amount of effort we're willing to put into building a wonder: the Colossus is only half as costly as the other two, it's effects will be smaller, but when used right certainly an asset. Sure, the Pyarmids or the GL can have more benefits, but also cost more... it's kind of balanced. I feel like we have the possibility to spend more on wonder building, hence I would like to wait and build a bigger wonder, but if we need Hurricane's production back faster the Colossus will be fine as well.

                          Alva, trading Pyramids for GL with RPG: very good idea, with but one problem: if we would get into a war before completing the Pyramids, and we would gain a leader, we can't use it to rush. Or, if a leader is used by someone else to build the Pyramids, we're screwed as well. It's risky... I would wait, as we should be able to do it without a deal with RPG. If Lux and ND get into a fight, it's probably going to be a long one, so lots of elite promotions possibilities.

                          DeepO
                          Last edited by DeepO; February 14, 2003, 14:25.

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                          • #58
                            How far along is the prebuild? The shield cost for a Palace is 300 at that empire size on regent, so either we're 75 shields in or the Palace cost is modified to Chieftain level as well. (I'm guessing the latter)

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                            • #59
                              There is no prebuild as of yet (under 20 Shields).


                              Dominae
                              And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                              • #60
                                It has 4 shields, next turn (once we'll get it) 8.

                                DeepO

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