Does the Great Library still make sense?

[Arrian]

Disease sucks.

I'm having a hard time gauging where we're at, in terms of the overall game. PBEM games are like that... what flashes by quickly in SP takes an eternity.

Having said that, I'm leaning toward my original wish: the Colossus. It's more conservative (lower risk, lower reward... but still a nice reward). Meanwhile, pump settlers in EotS (to the extent that the friggin' RNG doesn't decide to hit us with more disease).

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Well... although I still favor the GL, I like the Collosus too. However, if we would go for that one, we would be best to pump the size of Hurricane too, as the larger the city, the better the profits. And once it gets to size 11 or 12 (which are both stable without a border increase, for size 12 a harbor is needed), we can't really use it as a pop-supplier, but solely as a barracks and science city. But yes, it's a valid option

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, BTW, I recently was able to get a new personal record on the completion of the GL: 1175 BC, starting with the second city immediately after founding, and without adding many workers (1 or 2, there were cows in abundance). I think as a comparison it can count: this was an emperor large map, of which the discovery of literature really was the only limiting factor, and I went all out on it, risking as much as I could. By the time it finished, I only had 3 cities, and hardly any decent troops...

If I count the delays, we should be able to finish the GL in 850 - 800 BC, maybe faster, and at that time have some 8 cities or more, even if we get hit by disease again. I still think this is a viable situation, getting a supersized wondercity, the GL and 8 cities in 800 BC (which is before any major invasion forces could arrive)... but yes, we need to adjust middle long term plans, as we don't want to speed along the tech tree if this means we need to give techs away for free. We can catch up later, and still keep some techs to deal to others...

Oh, and Arrian, I think our current situation is about as good as they come, when not archer rushing the AIs. We're still only 51 turns far in the game...

DeepO

[zeit]

Indeed, a tough call- the monetary benefits of the GL (which i see as most important, especially in terms of buying other teams- like Gow) against its cost in early growth (8 cities by 800 is too little IMHO) and the fact that we can't predict what will happen on the main continent- sure, some will war and some will trade- but how many? and will we be able to use our monetary advantage before they make our GL almost absolete. I mean- will we use our money for buying GoW, for example, just to keep the war going and our GL advantage?

After the last disease strikes and the great trade potential we will soon have (after trading contacts), as well as our relative comfortable geographical position (although others probably have more room), i think its better we focus on a more modest wonder or project, like building the colossus, or building hurricane as our east port

[DeepO]

Well... if going for the Collosus doesn't keep us from adding workers (other teams will value it too, and race for it, plus it pays off best when built in a large city), we'll get the same situation when it comes to amount of cities. Note that for 8 cities in 800 BC, we don't build any settlers outside of our two pump cities, and build workers there too. I guess it will be closer to 10 cities, which would maybe mean we're not the largest civ anymore, but still one of the largests.

If Collosus in a large city seems a good option to most of us if the GL doesn't have that much use in a new trade situation, we could start a palace prebuild now, add workers, and decide in some 15 turns if we'll go for the Collosus or the GL. But we need to adjust our long term plans a lot sooner.

Personally, I would keep the Collosus or the lighthouse an option, but still aim for the GL. But yes, I'm less fanatic as I used to be.

DeepO

[Theseus]

I'm still up for the GLib.

Our best strategy here could be just as much Machiavellian as it might be REX or warfare.

In my own SP games, I too often limit my game strategies, by not keeping enough balance among the Pillars (thus my reports of significant come-backs in the Strat forum).

Although I think Nathan and others pushed a too-pacifistic agenda early on (and I was probably wrong), I very strongly feel we need to maintain an EXTREMELY balanced strategy for the time being.

What does that mean?

REXing, yes.

Appropriate defense, yes.

Offense? Not yet.

A game-breaking GW effort? Yeah, why not... Re-assess often, and stay flexible.

[nbarclay]

Theseus, if I were convinced that the Great Library would be that "game-breaking GW effort," I would be all for it myself. But the Great Library is very much a hit-or-miss proposition. In the "Son of SVC" AU game, I used the Great Library to excellent effect because the starting position provided too little halfway-decent land to build up an adequate research base on my own. I knew there was no way I could keep up in tech on my own, so I made the Great Library a high priority. But in the isolation game as Persia (where civs were deliberately held back from meeting each other), I pushed ahead with my own research and let the Great Library (which I had built in case it looked like the AIs were outpacing me) just sit there doing nothing. As a result, I was out stomping all over the rest of the world with cavalry at a time when players who relied on the Great Library were still waiting to be contacted. Yes, that was a unique case, but games where I would have to give up a significant potential tech advantage to use the Great Library aren't rare. The Great Library can be a game-breaker, a ball and chain that holds you back, or anything in between, all depending on the circumstances.

This game is a lot harder to get a read on because human opponents aren't going to play like AIs. There are possible scenarios where the Great Library could benefit us a great deal (especially if we get a chance to play vulture after an ancient-era fight between rivals), and possible scenarios where using it could cost us an opportunity for a significant tech lead. That makes me a lot more unsure it's worth a significant compromise to our REXing to get it.

And frankly, the fact that so much of the team has such serious reservations about a long-term partnership with Vox gives me a lot more reservations about the Great Library. We and Vox have the only two offensive-oriented ancient UUs in the game. Our UU upgrades to knights, while Vox's has enough of an offensive punch to take on pikemen without upgrading. Together, our two civs could pack a very serious wallop for an offensive in the late ancient/early medieval era, the time when we would need to mount an offensive for the Great Library to be worthwhile.

But for that to work right, we need to bring Vox in on the Great Library deal as something approaching full partners, giving them a good enough return that their deal from the Great Library is clearly better for them than what they're getting from the current research pact (and preferably enough better for them to view it as in their interest to contribute workers to the effort). But no one but me seems interested in that kind of partnership, and without such a partnership, our potential for fighting the kind of war that would use the Great Library to best possible advantage is a lot more limited.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Indeed, I don't care about having a long term partnership with Vox, simply because they may have got possibly the best ancient UU, but I doubt they will play optimally with it. I was never scared from them when it came to defending our own territory, I'm sure other teams are not that scared of them either...

But there are other offensive possibilities around the time mentioned, and the most obvious one would be to eradicate Vox. We may not want to see the long term alliance with Vox, Nathan, but are you sure you want to see the option where Vox is sitting on a time bomb?

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I can't help but think the kind of "suspend research and do massive upgrades" tactics normally associated with the Great Library would be major overkill going after Vox. But while Vox would have no real chance of standing up against us, such a fight would weaken us enough and cost us enough time to make an invasion of the main continent during that era a lot more difficult.

And frankly, if Vox proves not to be particularly competent as allies, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. No matter how incompetent Vox is, a big stack of immortals would be bound to draw a lot off attention away from us and kill some enemy units in the process. If Vox's attack then falters, we'll be left with the advantage of reduced casualties for us without making Vox a major power in the process.

Also keep in mind that Vox is willing to trade some of their cities closer to us for conquered Luxian cities, since Lux is closer to their capital. So we could end up with most of our continent, a better-placed FP because we wouldn't have to worry about reducing corruption all the way from one end of the continent to the other, and a foothold (and hopefully a palace) on the other continent. That seems like a lot more potential profit than what we could gain from killing Vox. And with us controlling a larger percentage of our home continent, Vox would be in a weaker position to attempt a doublecross later as well.

Nathan

[Dominae]

I agree that the GL plan is no longer a good idea, for all the reasons mentioned above. I also do not like the Colossus plan. The Colossus would be a nice addition once we're up and running, but putting heavy investment into it now is not worth the return, IMO.

I may be wrong, but there seems to be a subconscious desire to "do something" with this game, since things are moving so slowly compared to SP. Thus we're considering tier-2 Wonders. The only Wonder that is worth uber-heavy early investment in this game is the GL, and even that plan has much going against it now. So generally I'm with Theseus that would should play a strong, conservative game here.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

I still like the idea of the Great Library in conjunction with a joint operation with Vox to invade the main continent. That could bring a considerable payoff, and the timing is right to make good use of the Great Library. And with a little luck, Gow, ND, and Lux will have worn each other down a bit fighting by then, or at least will be weak from having neglected their REXing while focusing on a military build-up.

But otherwise (and no one else seems to support my alliance idea), my inclination is to start Hurricane on a prebuild for "a wonder" and see how things play out. We would keep REXing for the time being, but maybe add workers later once our more important city sites are all up and running.

Nathan

[Shiber]

Should we give up on the GL and prepare for building the Sistine Chapel and another midage wonder (Leonardo's or JS Bach's are both great) instead?

[Dominae]

I too support the "a Wonder" plan, as long as we do not join any Workers or otherwise focus on it too much. Sun Tzu would be nice, and who knows, we might even manage to deny the GL to the other teams. Too bad we've got that Barracks in Hurricane, though...


Dominae

[DeepO]

Shiber, that won't be possible right now, it's much too early for that. If a war does break out on the main continent, tech rates are going to drop extremely, the middle age could be far away. We're very decent research wise, but we can only discover techs in 10 or more turns even after we build libraries, and if nobody is doing the same the Sistine Chapel can be many centuries away.

If we don't get the GL, there is one less tech trading partner around, and the two teams that have most chance of building the GL peacefully are also the best candidates for research (RPG and Lego). If one of those keep the slider at 100% tax because of the GL, it will take ages before anything gets researched around here.

Think about this for a minute: what are we going to do in the case when another team builds the GL? Are we going to beeline for education, spending all we have on research so at least they will gain less money? Or, are we going to try to ceise the GL forcefully? Or, are we just going about our business, not taking into account the possible advantages one team gets, as other teams will focus on them?

DeepO

[DeepO]

One last comment, in case we have a trustful, long term relation with any team at the moment the GL wears out, we can still get a considerable advantage out of it if the other team is willing to not research are acquire education for a while. We could e.g. focus on one path, and after 30 or 40 turns offer our city to our ally for 1 turn, at which point he will get all current techs known to 2 teams. If we play it right, that team will thus be able to stockpile gold, which they later can share with us, together with any new techs they discovered,

DeepO