Possible Great Library deal with Vox - discussion thread

[Arrian]

I'm in general agreement, Nathan, I just think we should negotiate from strength and try to maximize our side of the deal. In other words, start out shooting for the moon and maybe end up settling for near-earth orbit. As opposed to start out asking for NEO and ending up on top of a large building.

Sorry, crap analogies. I'm so tired... my GF is sick and I think I've been fighting it off for the past several days. I've been getting enough sleep but wake up exhausted.

-Arrian

[Shiber]

Get better soon.

[DeepO]

Nathan, of course specifics can be arranged, but at first i would aim for half the price at least. If Vox wants to pay us 66%, there is no need to tell them: hey, you lose money that way, you can get 40% from us too.

One thing that I'm a bit worried for is the duration of this plan. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like you want to have this kind of trade deal for as long as Vox wants, ideally meaning until we discover education. I OTOH, think that this is not the way to go, as I still see Vox getting conquered by us once we can take advantage of all the cash gained through the GL. I don't want to spoil Vox, and I certainly don't mind if they hold grudges towards the end of our relationship.

Further, as always with the GL, you can get the most out of it, if you decide to not trade all techs immediately away when reaching education. Education itself, e.g., is something I very rarely sell in SP. I don't mind one bit to sell republic, but not education as it gets everyone even. I want every other team to be equal once they are researching techs that we can get from the GL, but once it stops, we should be able to get on top immediately, without too many teams in hot pursuit.

DeepO

[DeepO]

dp because of crappy 'poly connection

[zeit]

I like Nathan's idea, but also think that we should aim higher than 20%- more like 40% or something. Who knows- Vox might just accept it- and who are we to blame?

Anyway, Vox will want more, probably, so starting with a reasonable offer will end up a low offer for us.

As for posting on the main board (too early, but still, i think its worth noting): we don't want to start a too fierce competition in which the poor civs benefit (unless there are special circumstances), so a private offering for each team might serve our interest better.

[nbarclay]

I can't see any viable way to negotiate a deal in terms of, "until we're ready to conquer you," and certainly not any way that I could actively participate in in good conscience. Can you?

If the positions were more equal, I could see negotiating in terms of current advantage while the teams jocky for stronger long-term positions. In that case, each side would understand that the other is merely using them for short-term advantage, and that later on, all bets are off. And that would be okay because both sides would have a reasonable chance standing up on their own.

But Vox's main asset right now, to whatever extent they realize it, is their ability to hold us back early. And the main thing they want is a chance to survive and, hopefully, prosper later on. That makes for a very different type of relationship and negotiations, one where hope of long-term survival and a reasonable level of prosperity for them is a lot more important than the exact balance of benefits in any single short-term deal. What they absolutely, positively will not want to do (assuming they have any sanity at all) is make us more powerful just so we can take them out more easily. But that is exactly what they would be doing if they give us gold to pay for upgrades we refuse to say won't be used against them.

Nathan

[zeit]

Nathan- that is true, but given that we want to use Vox only to certain extent, and not actually living side by side for the rest of the game, we can allow ourselves to demand more now, and not to worry about future resentment too much. If they sign a deal with us, which binds them, then later on sees that they can get a better deal, (which actually happened) they might resent, be angry and so forth- but then it won't matter much. We will be well underway with our preparations for an attack, and the rest will be history.

If, OTOH, we want to establish a real long lasting relationship, we should put in mind that we have to give Vox enough reasons to trust and stand by our side, as you said, and not trying to nail them every chance we get. I might have thought this was a prudent course of action- but seeing now how Vox plays its game-they're just not smart enough game-wise to be a worthy long term ally (maybe not smart enough to beat us as well, but that doesn't mean they won't try to, so it doesn't make them better allies).

Maybe their attitude towards the game will change, and they will be able to see beyond the short term which has seriously concerned them untill now, but this time of consolidation is so important, and by doing what they are doing (placing a city in a "WTF" position, building a road instead of improving their starting position tiles) they are just ruining their every chance of becoming a noteworthy player in the worldwide arena, so i really don't see how much we gain from being in a very long term relationship with them, unless they make a 180 degree turn and start thinking about how they will be in 50 turns from now...

[DeepO]

I agree with both comments. Sure, it would be immoral to exploit Vox just as much as we can use, but so far that has not been the deal, and it won't start from now on. But I see no real reason why I want to get Vox as game-long buddies, I mean I know the advantages such a relation could make for two able teams, but Vox is just not one of them. If they proof me wrong, and turn out to be perfect partners, I'll gladly support a more intimate relation between the two teams, but right now, I don't want to commit to that.

Nathan, I'm not sure if Vox is seeing the long term. The moment we speculated of being alone on a 2-civ island, we saw the possibilities, but feared what Vox might damage if they would foolishly attack us. However it doesn't seem they were seeing the long term effects, they say they didn't realize the pace at which research was progressing on the main continent, but I doubt they even bothered to look for it. So why would they now seek long term relations, when the short term benefits can look much greater? E.g. try to sell them the techs at 50% of the price instead of 20%, and they'll likely negotiate it down to 40%. For them, that would mean a 20% discount in the worst case (can be as high as 50% discount), and I doubt that many Voxians will think what it does to our mutual power ratio.

DeepO