Turn 44

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
The first thing we probably ought to do is contact Roleplay and try to find out what they're up to. If they're still prioritizing Map Making and interested in looking us up when they get it, that would take off a lot of the pressure for us to research it and make it a lot less worthwhile to research (since Roleplay will almost certainly get it first).

If other teams can guarantee they'll look us up ASAP, this sounds like a fine option. But puts us in a trusting and powerless position. Roleplay and others may want to keep us secluded. Maybe their Galleys will not find us as fast as we would like. Like I've said in another post, contact with the other teams is what we need the most right now, apart from REX. Even Roleplay do prioritize Map Making, is there such a loss in us researching it too? I too would like to be a branch leader, but this is pretty hard to do when we've contacted no on besides Vox.


Dominae

[Theseus]

Please look back one post above Dominae's... I had a longish edit.

[nbarclay]

I took the bit about the new worker out of the economic orders, since he won't be finished until next turn (thanks, corruption) and I don't like mixing next-turn issues with this-turn orders. When he's finished, I have in mind for him to move 2 and start mining and then roading the wheat and then start work on shielded grasslands. When we can spare another worker, we'll connect Cyclone by chopping, irrigating, and roading the game tile.

[nbarclay]

How does this sound for a plan (in light of NYE's observation that wonders tend to come later in MP than in SP)?

1) Have Hurricane start work on a wonder once it finishes its barracks, without adding any workers. We'll take what wonder we can get. This would leave us militarily weak temporarily, but we'd get more cities to enhance our production base sooner than if we add workers to Hurricane.

2) Once we get Writing, we research Map Making, then Philosophy, while Vox goes for Code of Laws.

3) We go for Republic while Vox goes for Literature (unless we can trade for Literature). Libraries might help speed up the tail end of our work toward Republic.

Note that this will eventually provide the techs for both the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse. And because we'd be REXing and researching full speed and wonder-building more slowly than if we'd add workers, if we end up with the Pyramids, at least a large part of our GA would be in Republic (especially since the GA would help us get to Republic faster if we aren't there yet).

Nathan

[DeepO]

Theseus, your views on short to middle term deal with Vox is not very differently as what the rest of the team thinks, so far I think Nathan is jthe only one who said he would like a middle to long term deal.

Borders: If we don't have any treaty, even assuming we'r going for Rex everywhere, focussing on settlers, we can't keep Vox from settling closer to us. The wheat city is lost no matter what (as they're already heading that way with a worker), and the next city won't take long. We are in no position to attack early on (as you said), which means they can build their first 2 border cities, and back fill later, unhampered. Of course, their defense will be weaker, of course their cities corrupted, and they will be easy to take later on. But the point is that we don't gain by pushing them to expand, as we'll have to expand as well.

This is for me the only reason to agree to the border treaty in its current form, it gives us more land and useable cities then without a treaty. And, we can direct how they will build their cities, making them worthy for us to take over in the future.

GL - literature discussion: if we're not going for the GL, MM would make a good choice. But, as said before: probably one of the best branch leads we can have is to go for construction, while ensuring that Vox gets us MM. I share Nathan's believe we can get to republic first, but if we don't have any contacts, that advantage won't last long. It is too high on the wanted list for everyone, especially the builders. Construction seems to have a better lifetime.

Nathan, Re: last proposal for just any wonder: No, I don't agree. The problem is that that will be too risky, The earliest any civ started on a wonder from their 3rd city (or their 1st, after 3rd was built) is in turn 29, 15 turns ago. This will mean that in the worst case scenario, we have a 40 shield delay we have to catch up, which without pumping size won't happen. I agree, it is possible that nobody has started yet (nobody is very isolated, apart from us, and the GoW is close to at least 3 civs, which tends to delay wonder building), but we can't gamble on that. I don't want to spend all these shields without at least having a very good shot at hitting the jackpot.

Re: the effect of wonders: the GL is good, as it nets us over 2000 gold. The pyramids are good, as they will make our empire grow twice as fast, making pop-rushing a viable way of getting production. The lighthouse will be good, but this is no archipelago map, and at this point I won't go for it specifically, starting a prebuild to get to the lighthouse. Collosus is always nice, but as we will likely not get that far in the game, and because we have many cities (and not just 4 or 5), its effect is rather limited (8 more commerce each turn is not nothing, but not very extraordinary either). Other wonders are simply not worth it, so if we go for a wonder, we should do it now, and not later (except when spending a leader). And the GL certainly is my favorite, as it has the best shields / gold ratio, coming at a good time too.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

For us to get beat out on the Great Library, the Pyramids, and the Great Lighthouse all three, either there would have to be a combination of at least three cities (including at least one coastal one) that (a) already started on wonders and are capable of at least comparable production with Hurricane, or (b) will start later but would outproduce Hurricane enough to make up for the late start. I wouldn't count on hitting the Great Library jackpot without adding workers, but I don't think there's a whole lot of risk of being stuck with nothing either.

In regard to the Great Lighthouse, it would be useful in any intercontinental invasion, and there's at least some chance it would make an enormous difference in our ability to get to RolePlay's lands quickly should they become an attractive target. Judging from the minimaps (and I'd welcome other people's interpretations), it looks to me like the distance between us and RolePlay just might allow a direct crossing rather than having to follow the coast with the ability to stop in sea tiles and move four per turn.

[DeepO]

We can get to RPG without crossing sea or ocean, but it will require a detour. Lux has been trading with other teams (most likely up to RPG), so it has to be able to reach them. Further, we can reach Lux...

Lighthouse might not be a total waste, but in this situation, it is hardly the best wonder either. I still think we should go for the GL

Re: what to research: a new msg from RPG has arrived, but I currently have not enough time to discuss it. Can someone give an estimate on how long it will take to get to writing? They don't have it yet, and seemingly don't have access to Lux (nor Vox). I think we can agree to the proposed deal, as we will not get there in time anyway, but we should use it to get something else for the trade.

DeepO

[Shiber]

I've just read the message from RP. Curses on Vox for delaying our research!

RPG would never agree to delay their release of writing to the world by 12 turns. We must strike an agreement with Vox and Lux NOW.
IMHO, we should tell Vox that they will be buying writing from us, without the possibility to change renegotiate this deal, and tell Lux that as soon as Vox has given us contacts with them in exchange for writing, we will offer them writing at a discounted price, or in exchange for any other contacts that they may have.

[Dominae]

Why let Hurricance finish its Barracks if it's going to be placed on Wonder-duty?

Great Library then Pyramids are our best choices. As Nathan said, we'll probably get one of these two, and if so the Great Lighthouse is not so bad (but not so great, IMO).


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
Why let Hurricance finish its Barracks if it's going to be placed on Wonder-duty?

Great Library then Pyramids are our best choices. As Nathan said, we'll probably get one of these two, and if so the Great Lighthouse is not so bad (but not so great, IMO).

Why the barracks? Because that way, we won't have to wait close to 20 turns to have the ability to upgrade warriors to swordsmen should an emergency arise.

[Shiber]

Well, the save has been here for some time now. Is there anyone around who can play?

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Shiber
I've just read the message from RP. Curses on Vox for delaying our research!

RPG would never agree to delay their release of writing to the world by 12 turns. We must strike an agreement with Vox and Lux NOW.
IMHO, we should tell Vox that they will be buying writing from us, without the possibility to change renegotiate this deal, and tell Lux that as soon as Vox has given us contacts with them in exchange for writing, we will offer them writing at a discounted price, or in exchange for any other contacts that they may have.

An unforeseen consequence of our relationship with Vox

I suspect that there will be more unforeseen consequences the longer we maintain this relationship.

The total sum is less than the parts, if you will.

The more we rely on Vox to do ANYTHING, the more this will happen.

[DeepO]

writing delay deal with RPG (which I'm going to discuss here, instead of in the RPG comments thread as we already started on it):

Is it going to take us 12 turns? If so, we can't keep Lux from getting it... one of the implications of this deal is that Lux will get it from RPG, and from us / Vox.

RPG doesn't say anything about Civ X, they don't tell us that it's Lux. I find it very hard to believe they wouldn't know, seeing their previous messages (in which they told us that Vox could be seen from across the sea). I think they simply don't want to spoil that information to us, as Lux asked them to keep quiet about it.

1. So, do we tell them it's Lux? There's a small chance they don't know it yet, but it would certainly simplify communications. Plus, Vox told Lux we're close, so we don't betray anything if we tell RPG if it's Lux. (and it builds further on the goodwill between GS and RPG)

2. RPG will be able to trade writing to Lux, who may be researching it themselves. We can't help it, I see no way of getting to Lux first. We can get to Vox first, though, so we should aim for that. But, we can delay the trade to the outside world a little, marginally delaying trades on the other continent. So, would anyone object if I try to negotiate a deal with RPG, in which we both aren't allowed to trade away writing in 6 turns? This should make it possible to get to Vox in 8 turns (if we have writing at that point), and is no lie if properly formulated: we will not trade away writing before the 6 turns have passed.

3. I would want to try to get an idea on how fast tech-trading is going, but the only way to ask them this information is if we tell them something in return. Does anyone have any ideas what we can tell to RPG, in order to ask them what kind of partnership deals have formed? We can ask them for an alliance (proposal of course, just feeling the mood), and if they would be interested in this... I'm sure RPG would make a better partner then Vox in the long term.

4. MM... would it be alright if I ask them again an estimate on the ETA of galleys? it looks like we will be around simultanous if we both research MM, so maybe we can make a deal, in that they go for literature, we for MM, and race towards them, at which point we'll trade. I don't see why we need to form a partnership with Lux, when RPG is closer by.

5. They asked about a deal in which we both disclose which wonders we were building, so that the other team couldn't start on it instead. Would it be good if we ask them if they have started on it already? We can say in all honesty that we're still discussing it...

DeepO

[DeepO]

asleep, I don't want a long relation with Vox, but right now, they're the only ones around... we have to use what we have gotten, nothing to do about that.

The deal, in which we offer writing to Lux the moment we get their contact from Vox seems fine, but I doubt they will go for it. If they're researching it themselves, they will get it before we can offer it to them (certainly as there are a couple of turns delay in offering / accepting deals). Add to that that another team can get to writing too (on a 1 scientist regime RPG will be able to get it in 40 turns, which have passed already), and can trade it to Lux... most likely, they will not get it from us.

Vox said that Lux already had writing (IIRC), which is possible, but strange. Wouldn't RPG know this fact? Don't we need to contact them soonish, to confirm what Vox has said to us? If they already have writing, would RPG not know this?

DeepO

[Shiber]

1. I see no problems with that.
2. Great idea, let's delay them by as much as we can. I was tempted to ask you to try to push it towards 7 turns, which they may agree to, but we don't want to aggrevate them. They're offering us a sweet deal already, there's not much room to maneuver within it, nor will it be polite to try to do so.
3. This should be fascinating! Yes, try to get some information about relations, deals and alliances that are forming. I haven't any ideas on what to tell them yet; I'm gonna walk my dog now (the one in my avatar), maybe I'll get some ideas during the walk.
4. Sounds good. We'll probably want to build a galley anyway, to explore the coasts of Vox and Lux.
5. I abstain from this discussion for now.