Turn 44

[Harovan]

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Researching Writing at 100%
- 86 gold cash, -1 per turn.

Urgent questions:
- none

Military:
- Grog returns to the Lookout Ridge.
- Settler moves 2 on site #7. Bolderberg to be founded next turn.
- Zonk moves back to Cyclone (if no barbarian sighted)
- Slash moves 2 and will reach site #7 in 2 turns

Economy:
- Worker #1 begins road to Bolderberg and Cyclone.
- Worker #2 finished irrigating and starts road.
- Cities continue as they are.

Diplomacy:
- none

[Dominae]

Map Making next for sure.


Dominae

[Arrian]

You think so? Do we have a city that will definitely be able to produce a galley around the time we will get mapmaking? Hurricane, perhaps, but right now the discussion is raging over whether or not we're going to a) build the GL there or b) build a barracks and pump out vet spearmen.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

If we do go for the GL, we might have a problem building our first Galley. The best solution here would be to prioritize site 4 as our next city-site (East of Cyclone), and used a chopped forst to get our boat in the water.

If Hurricane is instead placed on Vet. Spearmen duty, I'm sure we can spare a few turns to build a Galley. A Galley will be useful immediately; the Spearmen probably not.


Dominae

[Theseus]

Just confirming... Grog is on the east coast is moving 8?

[Harovan]

Grog was on the mountain with the iron 3 east of the Lookout Ridge, killed a barb camp there. He went back 1 tile last turn. In 2 turns he'll be back at his lookout.

[nbarclay]

If we don't go for the Great Library, I'd much rather head straight for Republic than detour through Map Making. There may be an outside chance we could REX our way to winning the race for Republic, which not only would speed up our research but might be a very valuable thing to trade. And hopefully, a Roleplay galley will find us in the meantime; otherwise, if Vox and Lux want Republic from us, this business of keeping contacts to themselves has to end.

Nathan

[Harovan]

I don't know. The GL is an amazing wonder, but the price we're going to pay is simply too high. At least for my taste.

Why The Republic, Nathan? Shouldn't we first have a much better infrastructure to really take advantage from it. I'm still in favor of Map Making first. Here are the reasons:

- We are behind in tech and need contacts to as many teams as possible, in order to speed up the research of techs the other civs have already.
- There is most likely still a lot of gaps on the other continent and we can send some exploring warriors there. Considering the fact, that this will be our battlefield, this information is very precious. After all terrain is settled, it will be too late.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I don't know. The GL is an amazing wonder, but the price we're going to pay is simply too high. At least for my taste.

Why The Republic, Nathan? Shouldn't we first have a much better infrastructure to really take advantage from it. I'm still in favor of Map Making first. Here are the reasons:

- We are behind in tech and need contacts to as many teams as possible, in order to speed up the research of techs the other civs have already.
- There is most likely still a lot of gaps on the other continent and we can send some exploring warriors there. Considering the fact, that this will be our battlefield, this information is very precious. After all terrain is settled, it will be too late.

I can see the logic with mapmaking first. Personally, I would prefer going for the lighthouse than the library for exactly those reasons. I would think that our goal would be to never fight a war (besides with Vox) on our territory. The only way to do that is to take the battle abroad and protect our coasts. That one extra turn and sea movement could prove more valuable in the long run than the GL, IMHO.

Like I've said before, in the archi mp maps I've played and gotten the G lighthouse, I've been much stronger than my opponents.

[nbarclay]

I've always viewed the idea that Republic is only worth it with lots of infrastructure as overblown even on Emperor, and we're playing here on Chieftain (at least as far as happiness is concerned). As long as tile improvements keep up with our growth, each laborer gives us an extra gold under Republic, and once we get our second luxury hooked up, happiness won't start to be a problem until cities grow to size seven (eight if we give them one of our cheap temples). Then there's the significantly reduced corruption under Republic, which lets us keep more gold and more shields from our outlying cities. So yes, I think Republic would very definitely work to our advantage even without the added benefits of marketplaces and libraries (and even with a much larger military than I would normally have in SP).

What I'd really love, of course, is if other civs think like you do. Just think how far we could go trading Republic if that's the case.

Nathan

[Harovan]

You have a point with the trade argument. But as far as I can see, beelines to the better governments are pretty common in PBEM games. And many of the other teams are active PBEM players.

What we're talking about, is a 12 point tech (MM). Philosophy costs 6, CoL 10 and the Republic itself 28. How long will it take to get it?

[nbarclay]

If we want to stay in the game research-wise without the Great Library (and I don't regard the Great Library debate as closed yet), we need either something that will enhance our science or a branch lead on the tech tree, preferably both. If we would check with Roleplay and find out that they decided they weren't so interested in Map Making after all, there's a chance that using Map Making for a branch lead might be practical. But if Map Making is a priority for them, we can pretty much forget it.

A beeline to Republic (with Vox researching Philosophy while we research Code of Laws) would offer direct value for our research capacity, and would give us a decent chance at a branch lead on the single most valuable of all ancient techs. There's an outside chance our duo would get either Philosophy or Code of Laws at a time when Lux wants it. And we'd have a better chance of out-REXing other teams enough that we could win the race to Republic - especially if we could get Vox to feed us a little gold so we can keep our research rate at 100%.

As for the future military value of information about the other continent, it would certainly be nice to know about whatever lands there aren't settled yet. But if our tech base isn't strong enough to support an invasion, what's the point?

Nathan

[Dominae]

We're not entirely sure what the world tech situation is (other than reports from Vox). Thus we're not sure what each team is researching. Things are going to be a lot different once we've made contact with everyone else.

We need to get contact with the other teams ASAP.

I suggest we research Map Making, and ask Vox to get started on The Republic. There are still quite a few techs in the Ancient age; we'll get into the loop somehow, but only if we make contact sooner rather than later.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

If we do go for Map Making, we might want to get Vox started on Code of Laws and then we could go back and pick up Philosophy after we're finished with Map Making. That way Map Making would "only" set us back by an editor tech value of eight, assuming Vox can research quickly enough. Of course that difference is still more than a quarter of the way to Republic, which would pretty much destroy our hope of getting a branch lead with Republic.

The first thing we probably ought to do is contact Roleplay and try to find out what they're up to. If they're still prioritizing Map Making and interested in looking us up when they get it, that would take off a lot of the pressure for us to research it and make it a lot less worthwhile to research (since Roleplay will almost certainly get it first).

Nathan

[Theseus]

My current views:

* Vox
These guys are idiots and unstable. First off, I just don;t trust them (not that they are bad guys, they just suck and are immature), and secondly they are f-cking amateurs. They are totally unsuitable as long-term partners. Additionally, we have a locational problem... I want their land. We are eventually going to want our FP either in the center of or toward the north of the lower part of our continent.

That said, there are CLEARLY benefits to working with them in the short to medium term. No war for the moment (although I'll get back to our military posture). Shared techs and contacts.

Edit: Accidentally posted at this point. More to come.

More on Vox:

They will also prep our future land. And, perhaps, they can be of military use... Immortals and also a geographic buffer.

So I am all in favor of some kind of deal with them that achieves at least our short to medium term goals. But nothing more... maybe some promises of future possibilities, but we need to maintain the flexibility to go to war with them, or at least threaten to do so. In other words, they will survive at our sufferance (come on, we all know that to be true), and at a certain point we will either vassalize or destroy them. I said weeks ago that we should leverage our rep and intimidate the other teams... let's do so.

* The border concept
No way, unless it's pushed about 5 tiles to the north. I'd rather just REX... agreeing on a border as most recently suggested gives them a "diplomatic right" to that land, such that when we would want to take those towns / cities they could go crying to the UN Security Council. I don;t care if they try to expand down into the jungle and backfill... those towns will be worthless for them, and ours to take when we are ready.

* Research
Given the ability to accelerate research through cooperation and contacts, I believe we can get to Republic before it will be meaningfully additive to our commerce. I'd rather focus on MM to increase contacts, and thus decrease the cost of research... can someone think through the math of of this? I do not believe that Republic will be doable as a branch tech lead... too many non-religious civs out there. I think of our tech situation as being analogous to SP Emperor or Deity... we are screwed early on, in this case due to location; fine, we'll do what we have to to catch up.

* Military
I agree, for the moment we don;t want war. I've said this like 20 times... let's REX, defend appropriately, create killzones, develop a WC & Sword counter-reaction force, and start to build aggressive capabilities when it is time.

* GWs
I am completely uninterested for the moment. Colossus, maybe, but given what I've read of MP games, they are decided before the ongoing benefit of ANY GWs can contribute to the cause. Is it too much to ask that we develop our towns and land, build an appropriate military, explore and contact, and work our way out of the tech ditch we are in? And going for the GL as has been described is an INSANE bet... I'd rather play Lotto.

* Finally
We've got a great civ, a pretty good start except for our isolation, a weakling neighbor... Jesus Christ, I like to think we are among the best damn Civ3 players ALIVE! And we are on the verge of making monsterously important long term strategic decisions... like a looong term alliance with Vox (are you kidding?), because we heard second hand that there's a bunch of tech trading going on on the main continent? Gimme a break. Balance balance balance. Stick to the basics... play well... maintain flexibility. Be friendly, but NEVER handcuff ourselves. Sure we have challenges to overcome, but we need to remember who we are.

GATHERING STORM!!!