Vox Controli comments part two

[Dominae]

nye, concerning the rest of the world, I'm hopeful that the other teams will be willing trade with us once we get on the world stage. There will surely be a few techs left in the Ancient age when we all meet. Maybe we'll get a chance to research the unpopular tech like I'm sure we all do in SP games.

Your worry that other teams will gift Vox techs in order to block our trading is valid, but perhaps premature. What you're describing is a quite advanced diplomatic maneuver (I had to think about it for a bit myself!). The chances that other teams 1) think about it and 2) decide its a good idea, before we all meet are slim. Especially if they're not aware of Vox's relatively weak position, I think they would be very reticent to give techs away for free just to hurt GS.


Dominae

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Dominae
nye, concerning the rest of the world, I'm hopeful that the other teams will be willing trade with us once we get on the world stage. There will surely be a few techs left in the Ancient age when we all meet. Maybe we'll get a chance to research the unpopular tech like I'm sure we all do in SP games.

Your worry that other teams will gift Vox techs in order to block our trading is valid, but perhaps premature. What you're describing is a quite advanced diplomatic maneuver (I had to think about it for a bit myself!). The chances that other teams 1) think about it and 2) decide its a good idea, before we all meet are slim. Especially if they're not aware of Vox's relatively weak position, I think they would be very reticent to give techs away for free just to hurt GS.


Dominae

I agree re research goals, however so far we are going right down the prime path. We have no other choice. In fact, later on would we stop doing that on the chance that we could beat someone else to the tradable tech? Or would we go full speed towards to most valuable techs?

We will have to cross those bridges when we come to them.

re the tech spikes in our wheels, how did Vox get IW?

[Dominae]

Vox traded for IW.


Dominae

[Dominae]

I think we should start another (simple) poll: initial or revised border propsal (city placement plan)?

We seem to be quite evenly split as to whether or not the Voxian attempts to haggle for more land are acceptable. Let's vote on it.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae
Vox traded for IW.

The question is what did Vox give in return for IW...

One of my guesses is that they promised mysticism to Lux. Why else would they research that?

DeepO

[DeepO]

Nathan: Re: wheat city: I know I proposed it to be at xsite #12, but that was ideal for us, not for Vox. It would cover most of the mountains, protecting them from possible invasions... we don't want to have more mountains in Vox's territory, as these are strategically disadvantages for us.

Further, I don't have the screenshot here, but I thought that even moving the city leaves Vox with 12 landtiles and the fish, so those mountains aren't really wasted (sorry, could be wrong, as I can't check), they wouldn't be used anyway. I just proposed to have less culture pressure in our borders, separating the border more... and do it on both East as West side. For them, it will be better, due to lower corruption, and easy access to the forest (which they will need to chop soon, as the city will be completely corrupt under despotism).

BTW, I don't like the kind of deals where they 'promise to build less culture'... I think it's better to not get into such situations in the first place.

In this respect, I'm not going to poll yet, I certainly have to see the screenshot first.

DeepO

[Arrian]

With the promises and dreams of a wonderful alliance, we've given too much and we're setting ourselves up to do it again. Considering Vox's lands and the jungle-heavy locations we've tentatively granted them, they are not good partners. We would do much better if 1) we controlled the whole continent, and 2) we created a worthwhile partnership with another, stronger team.

Vox's help technologically will only really help us until we contact other teams, at which point we've got better options. Their help in the form of Immortals sounds great initially, but probably would not work out so well if you step back and think about it. Thus Vox offers us nothing beyond the short-term. Which is why a long-term alliance with them is not a good idea. Which is why we should be making peace with them now, but not depending on it.

A war between us and Vox would surely put us back. But by how much? With our supposed production advantage, we should be able to roll them over by the time our economy gets going. All our fears militarily were very near-sighted. Once the jungle starts coming down and we're amassing WCs, Vox cannot stop us. By this time we will probably have contacted the other teams, and will be able to determine (for sure) which move is best. Perhaps not attacking them is the way to go, but there is no way of knowing this yet. Let us extend our hand, and keep the other in wait (or whatever that expression is!).

Very well put, Dominae. I absolutely agree.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Dominae
A war between us and Vox would surely put us back. But by how much? With our supposed production advantage, we should be able to roll them over by the time our economy gets going. All our fears militarily were very near-sighted. Once the jungle starts coming down and we're amassing WCs, Vox cannot stop us. By this time we will probably have contacted the other teams, and will be able to determine (for sure) which move is best. Perhaps not attacking them is the way to go, but there is no way of knowing this yet. Let us extend our hand, and keep the other in wait (or whatever that expression is!).

A war with Vox in the time we are busy with our planned GL hazard will not put us back, it will destroy us entirely. And we even intend to give them thoughts by saying "We're going to build a wonder instead of units. Please be so nice not to attack us during this time and don't settle at our turf. You won't attack us, will ya? We might reward you with a couple of techs, if we succeed." It's sad to see, how many team members switched to 100% trust mode and intend to leave our land undefendable for at least 40 turns, if not more.

[DeepO]

A war with Vox in the next 40 turns is not realistical. We can't rush them, we will get behind in tech, and the only thing we're superbly good in (our growth) won't help, as we can't risk settling new cities. Once this option is out, there are other things to consider... I am not in 100% trusting mode wrt to Vox, but am realistic enough to see that, even if many would enjoy a good rush, we have to play nice for a while.

Oh, and yes, telling Vox we're wonderbuilding is a risk, something that needs to be discussed further. But don't forget it will make them weaker in relation to us (if they decide to go for it), and even more dependent. After that, we can still chose what to do with Vox, but we'll have won another advantage over them.

DeepO

[Harovan]

Heavens, who talks about rushing Vox? I'm talking about building vet spearmen to secure our mountain ranges and to create kill zones, and a few packs of War Chariots to push back an attack. Not necessarily of Vox. Lux might soon have Map Making. What would we do, if they dropped mere 2 swordsmen on our turf? Even if they are only exploring, it might put us in serious trouble.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


A war with Vox in the time we are busy with our planned GL hazard will not put us back, it will destroy us entirely. And we even intend to give them thoughts by saying "We're going to build a wonder instead of units. Please be so nice not to attack us during this time and don't settle at our turf. You won't attack us, will ya? We might reward you with a couple of techs, if we succeed." It's sad to see, how many team members switched to 100% trust mode and intend to leave our land undefendable for at least 40 turns, if not more.

Consider the scenario if we start the Great Library after finishing our barracks and we see Voxian troops coming our way.

(1) We switch Hurricane over to build something else, probably wasting a lot of shields. (After 200 shields, the "something else" would be the Colossus if it isn't already taken.) After that time, Hurricane shifts its massive production to building veteran units. (And yes, the switchover could be extremely painful depending on the timing.)

(2) We suspend research and start hoarding gold.

(3) We bring in multiple workers to get our iron connected.

(4) Cyclone switches from its granary to barracks and starts cranking out troops. It has a fair number of shielded grasslands available to work for good production.

(5) EotS changes over from growth mode to production mode (to whatever extent remains practical with Hurricane using the best tiles) to help meet the attack.

With those moves, I think an early Voxian attack could be met with more than adequate force by the time it would actually get to us. And once EotS shifts back to settler production mode, the balance of power will tip back even more in our favor.

Also note that I would want to make sure Vox has things lined up so they can profit from the Library by far more than just a couple techs (albeit with that profit coming on terms though which we also profit) so that their goal of keeping up with the rest of the world is clearly best met by having us build the Library. If we could sell Vox on the project enough that they'd contribute a couple workers, that would provide an additional safety margin because the two sides' growth would be set back comparably.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Agreed... eta on swords from Lux? 30 turns? by that time, we should have spears, and should be able to upgrade warriors with left over cash and a connected iron (IIRC, no screenie at hand).

I'm not saying it will be ideal, but the situation is workable, and will lead to much bigger rewards later on. Don't tell me that you don't like the idea of having the slider at 100% gold for upgrade money for half an age... WCs to knights cost a lot, but are very powerful.

DeepO

[Harovan]

Too many "should" for me, sorry. We can upgrade regular warriors, big waste of money, IMHO. And in 30 turns we may have our first Spearman. The next, maybe, 5 turns later. No kill zones. No chariot packs. No solid playing. Hazard.

The scenario Nathan describes is even worse.

(1) We made a big effort, but throw all away all we have in order to begin to build units to defend us.

(2) Ok

(3) Where from, if they are added to the city?

(4) See (1).

(5) After Hurricane is built up, EotS is dead. Will it be able to harvest 5 shields? Or not even that? Did those, who agreed to start this high risk gambling, consider, that our beloved "settler pump", in which we put all our effort so far, will be out of business for at least 50 turns, and after building 2 settlers? Talk about efficience.

And last: I'm pretty sure who'll build the GL. It's not GS, btw.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
A war with Vox in the time we are busy with our planned GL hazard will not put us back, it will destroy us entirely.

That's why the two are mutually exclusive. That's why we have to put a lot of trust in Vox.

It's sad to see, how many team members switched to 100% trust mode and intend to leave our land undefendable for at least 40 turns, if not more.

If you'll recall, I was the main proponent of 50% (or less) trust mode in the last couple of days. But since we're not voting on anything (other than building the GL), I figured we'd go along with what appears to be the team consensus, namely that we should trust Vox 100% and plan accordingly.

This is why I think just REXing is the best option right now. We get new cities, we have the capibility to defend our lands if need be, we're not dependent on Vox, we do not run the risk of losing 100 Shields-worth of production, et cetera, et cetera. All this, and my new doubts that the GL would be all that great given the free tech-trading policy of the other teams, supports my "no go" vote for both a heavy commitment to Vox and the GL.

Here's another thing to consider. The point of allying with Vox is so that we can avoid a costly war (in fact, to avoid building many military units altogether). But leaving our flanks open to Vox actually increases the chances that we'll have to go to war. Nathan's war scenario is surely doable, but completely unecessary if we give Vox no good reason to attack. To clarfiy, here are the scenarios:

1. Massive buildup of units: Vox strikes out of fear.

2. Adequate number of units for defense: Vox leaves us be.

3. Too few units: Vox strikes out of opportunity.


Dominae

[zeit]

Wow- lots of discussion on the last 12 hours...

I think the most urgent thing now is to close a border deal with Vox- this will take away most of the threat of attack, for the near future. In this issue- i strongly in favor of the draft Nathan and Jon Miller made, not the revised one, as i don't seriously consider Vox to be stupid enough to refuse this sort of peace deal (Whereas opportunism- they seem to have plenty of, which is just what we stasify, with our talks of "alliance").

Along with a tech partnership, which should be stressed out as an EVEN partnership. In no way i see us giving away techs just to keep Vox "in the race".

Maybe giving a tech to help Vox advance and research a more advanced tech for us, but this should be sorted out outside the tech agreement, and is sure to cost Vox.

Only an even partnership is acceptable- you get as much as you give will be fair, despite the fact that obviously Vox will research slower (fewer tiles and worse management), but this is how the game works, and this deal should be viewed by Vox as a necessary course of action, if they wish to swim with the big fishes.


On this note, i'd like to complement Nathan for the effort he put into working things out with Vox, and the considered manner in which he handled the talks with Jon Miller.